Would you rather trust a version written at the behest of an English monarch in the 17th century?
It seems for some that it is not enough for them to have eternal joy, but someone else must suffer. And this desire for the suffering of others is more important to them than love itself.
It makes me very sad to see that this message is what they wish to give as a witness to the love of God.
I deny it all.
The Lord loves you. He will not send you to suffer forever.
Tris
Agreed, Triskadecamus.
What’s “PC” about the original Hebrew and Greek? The KJV is a bad translation. It’s very pretty but it’s just not accurate. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but the word “Hell” does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Every instance of the word in the KJV, without exception is a mistranslation of one of three words: “Sheol,” “Gehennon,” or “Hades.” I’m sorry that so many fundamentalists are so completely uneducated about their own Bibles, but it is not “PC” to simply point out translational errors or medievel misinterpretations of the original text.
I find it rather ironic that fundamentalists, who by definition, are supposed to be all about the literal interpretation of scripture, get into such a snit when it is pointed out to them that much of what they believe is not Biblical.
Jersey Diamond
Let me say to you as well that none of the words you referenced actually say “hell” in their original languages. The parable of Lazarus says “Hades” in Greek, so either Jesus was speaking metaphorically or he believed in the Greek underworld,
All of the references in Matthew to “Hell” and “Hellfire” refer to Gehennon and the fires of Gehennon in Greek.
Even if Jesus had been talking about the “hell” of medievel Christian mythos, the disciples wouldn’t have known what the hell…er…heck he was talking about since no such notion existed in first century Palestine.
Well spoken and well taken, Tris.
(Can I call you “13” for short? 
)
I always assumed that if one is given eternal life, he is also given the mechanism to deal with it, to avoid situations like that of Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
I have also never understood how “eternity in heaven vs. eternity in hell” could be considered dogma when it is clearly contradicted by none other than John 3:16. This verse says that those who believe in the Son “shall not perish, but have everlasting life”. This assumes the converse to be true: those who do not believe will perish and will not have everlasting life.
I could understand if the less-quoted John 3:17 said, “Those who don’t believe will also not perish, and will also have everlasting life, but it will be in a really hot place.” But it doesn’t.
I have started a thread on this before (don’t feel like searching right now), but there were no good answers.
Tris, you are always a joy!
Diogenes, there are some of the great faiths (Buddhism? Hinduism?) that believe that obliteration (Nirvana) is the desired end and that we will continue to be reincarnated until we have worked out our karma. At least, that is my understanding. I may be incorrect.
I have a hypothetical question for you. If somehow you discovered before your death that heaven was a state of perfect bliss – better than the highest high imaginable – would you still want to be obliterated? How can complete happiness be boring? Isn’t that a contradiction?
Zoe,
I know all about Buddhism and the various Indian traditions (religion major here). You’re essentially right about the concept that we are reincarnated until we work out our karma (the process is called “samsara”) and reach Nirvana (“Nirvana” in Sanskrit means “snuffed out” as a candle) but this really refers to an extinguishing of the ego, and, accordingly, of the passions which cause suffering. It produces a state of temporal bliss, but the Buddha refused to speak of what came after that, other than to say that it was beyond words or thoughts. He also said that questions about an afterlife (or an after-samsara life) were irrelevant to the attainment of Nirvana. He was even sort of ambiguous about reincarnation. He allegedly had the ability to remember all his past lives but he said that nothing is transferred from one life to the next, that there was no “soul” so to speak.
Interesting question, but what do you mean by “perfect bliss?” I mean, specifically, what tangible experience of Heaven are we postulating here? Are you talking about a sort of static mental state, an eternal high or blissful emotional state without any physical manifestation? I need a visual image here. I have a difficult time with abstractions. To me, perfect bliss is playing with my daughter. That’s all the heaven I need.
Jersey, the site you linked to is hardly a credible, schlolarly source. It seems to consist of a lot of semi-informed assertions, defensive hand-waving, and specious extropolations.
Notice that they argue that the Greek word “Hades” must be referring to “Hell” because it is translated that way in the KJV. What kind of circular logic is that?
I’m sorry, Jersey, but with all due respect, I can read Koine Greek and Jesus never said “Hell” in any of the gospels.
Two does not equal four. Two plus two equals four! Without the whole equation, you will not get a complete answer.
John 14:6-- Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
I will not give you partial truths just to make you happy. I do not wish you to suffer. I want you to make it. That, my friend, is love!
What makes me sad is that people don’t give the whole truth, and from that, many will be misled.
The Lord does love you. He will not send you to suffer if you follow Him!
What “truth” did Tris leave out, Jersey?
go ahead and be a good person — just masturbate a few times.
maybe a strip club one night, just to be sure.
I disagree. Love is trusting others to make the right choices for themselves, regardless of what you consider “the truth” to be.
You can go on employing your personal truths upon yourself, but please do not force them upon others. And you do force them whenever you attempt to scare people into accepting Christ as their savior.
You honestly cannot see the arrogance of forcing your personal truths upon others. That makes me sad.
To me that sounds like you’re motivated to be a good Christian out of fear of being sent to hell rather than actually doing good for the sake of doing good. This is yet another worldview that I disagree with. Nothing wrong with disagreement at all.
You know, what gets me in a “snit” is when self righteous “neener neeners” take an issue and blow it out of proportion just to make an opposition look misinformed or “completely uneducated”. In other words, you don’t know what the hell your talking about. thierBibel has many references to hell in it. And I just quoted a few right off the top. And Jersey quoted a few more.You see I told you hell could be a literal furnace with Satan poking you with his pitchfork and will never get tired of it. Or the metaphorical one where it would represent eternal damnation. And the interpretations of you “scholarly” text means just what they say it means. Whether you fuckin agree with it or not. Fundamentalist Christians, by definition, are not supposed to do what you think they should. They interpret their bibles and, by consensus, try to stay as literal to God’s will as they can.
Not all refences to hell that were misenterpreted were refering to death or the grave. But those that were interpreted that way where done so because they where in the context of damnation and eternal misery. And you know what? whether it be a greek myhtological underground or a dump in a valley, it is what the Bible says happens to you if you do not go to heaven. And as a matter of fact, oblivion is so rarely even hinted at, I find it hard for you to accept that as the fundamental teachings when so many more fun places are repeated over and over. Then again maybe oblivion sounds better to you, and that is how you want to interpret it. Is this the part where I am supposed to acerbically call you completely uneducated about the subject because I disagree with you?
From reading his posts, he seems to tell people all you need to do is love one another in order to get into heaven. This in not so. This is misleading.
I may seem hateful to some because I don’t go from thread to thread saying LOVE LOVE LOVE, but I do want as many people as possible to make it.
I understand that you don’t want to go to heaven. I am not sure what God will do with that. But, AFWIK, you don’t even believe.
I know you think it is none of my business what you believe, and for the most part, you are right! You may think I am full of crap, but I do love you! I do. I need you to hear all of the gospel. What you choose to do with it is your own.
I want to make sure you have every tool you need to go into surgery, so that in the middle of it, when something goes wrong, you can try to fix it. Nothing is perfect, but at least you can try.
The truth is, you cannot go out and willingly sin and expect to get into heaven because you love so and so. That is a lie.
Love is important. So important that I love you enough to tell you X is what God commands and Y is what He forbids.
Everything is not made up of happy fluffy bunnies. If it was that easy, Jesus would not had to suffer and die like He did.
Love is wanting the best for others.
It’s not my personal truths. It’s God’s.
Rev 21:8— But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You want love?
God gave His Son so you can live.
He promises you many mansions in Heaven.
Peace and happiness will never end.
No more sin, suffering, sorrow or pain.
no quarrels, disagreements, disappointments or crying.
Nothing to make you sad.
You will know perfect joy.
You will have perfect knowledge.
All questions will be answered.
Surrounded by God’s perfect love. Just His presence will fill you with the most high feeling. NOTHING will ever compare.
If I were God, I could go into more detail, but, I am not…We do not have the capabiltiy to imagine anymore than that. It is too great for our little brain (even all the brains of the world combined) to imagine…
You speak so strongly of what other people should not do.
I only speak to them of what I am sure that they should do.
You seem to believe that you are without sin, while you delight in prophesing damnation for millions.
If you are right I am going to Hell.
If you are wrong, you will face the Lord, who will still love you, and will weep with you, as you consider all the souls you chased away from Him.
I will risk my soul for the love of my brother.
Tris
Let me repeat, Saen: The Bible has zero references to Hell in it. all of the references cited by you and Jersey are mistranslations. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
I haven’t called you uneducated, I’m just trying to explain the historical and cultural context of when these things were written. The concept of “damnation” in the sense of eternal torment was not a part of ancient Hebrew theology. Gehennon, Hades and Sheol were all metaphors for death (i.e. oblivion) and nothing else. Jesus was a Jew. Heaven and Hell are not Jewish concepts. I know what fubdamentalists believe those verses to mean, but that interpretation is wholly unsupportable by any meaningful lingusitic, historical or cultural investigation. I’m not trying to sound more erudite-than-thou here, but, come on, facts is facts. Words mean what they mean. [symbol]Ades[/symbol] is Hades, not Hell. [symbol]Innon[/symbol] is “Hinnon” (Gehennon). If you’re a Biblical literalist, then you can’t now reattach anachronistic meanings to those terms in order to make them fit a preconceived theological agenda. If you’re going to be a literalist, be consistent.
You speak so lightly of God’s word. Is it not more than childs scribble on a piece of paper?
I also speak to them what I am sure they must do.
Can I have a cite for me saying that I am without sin please? And while you’re at it, let me see the cite for me delighting in prophesing damnation to millions.
Maybe you have it confused with me wanting to let them know the consequences the BIBLE SPEAKS of.
Dear Tris, you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died for our sins.
You have asked for forgiveness (I am guessing) and believe that you are forgiven.
I believe that you love God with all your heart and all your soul.
You make it known on the board how much you love your fellow man.
AFAIK, you are a child of God. You will stand before God and be judged accordingly. I know not were you will go. I am assuming heaven.
** But give other people a chance**. If they do not know the truth and you tell them everything is ok, they will not repent. If you love your brother, wouldn’t you want them to be safe than sorry?
If my husband has driven all his life without an accident, would I still want him to wear a seat belt? YES.
If I am sick and I need medicine to make me better, or I will die, are you going to tell me that everything will be ok because you love me. Once I am dead, the medicine will do me NO good.
Your love is appreciated and wanted, but can’t I have the medicine too?
If I am wrong, Tris, then the Bible is a lie, and that makes Christianity a lie. So all this is pointless.
It is not pointless Tris. The bible is the word of God.
I will stand before God, and He will see that I tried to show His word to people IRL and on a messageboard, all of it.
JD
Triskadecamus:
I’d like to see the source of your ideas about God. Can you tell me where the bible says that your choice is between God and oblivion? I honestly don’t recall seeing that. And can you also show me where it says all you need is to be nice to everybody and you’re saved? Because the bible I read says
and
If there was another way to God and salvation, then Jesus died for nothing. And that seems to be what you’re saying: That the way to God is just loving everybody. Which is vital, don’t think I’m discounting the importance of love, by any means. But it’s not sufficient of itself. If it was, then Jesus died in vain.
Diogenes:
Your little “Hell doesn’t appear in the original languages” argument is a farce. Of course it doesn’t - IT’S AN ENGLISH WORD. God, Jesus, Heaven, Salvation, Sin, and Spirit are also words that don’t appear in the original languages. What’s your point? Jesus spoke of hell (gehenna) as a literal place, which is a place of torment. Even if it was just a colorful metaphor, “cast into hell, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” does not sound like a metaphor for any definition of oblivion that I’ve ever heard.