Been doing some reading about the whole Holy Grail theory and was wondering.
What would the impact on todays society if irrefutable proof that jesus was just a normal man, was a true direct descendant of David and Soloman. Was indded married to Mary Magdelan, had children and has living descendants today.(These decendants would be legiemate heirs as the king of the jews.
Whether you believe this is true doesnt matter for this, I am just wondering WHAT IF and how something like this would effect the world today.
Besides the obvious demise of the Roman Catholic Church and probably most of christianity as well. How would this go over in the muslim world? Muslims see Jesus as a prophet(I helive, I may be wrong) would this add fuel to extremist beliefs?
What about someone trying to establish themselves as the King of the Jews in the 21st century? Would they rule isreal?
There are living legitimate claimants to various thrones – Russia, the Holy Roman Empire, France, etc. These people mostly have ordinary jobs and work for a living.
Juan Carlos of Spain is an interesting exception…
But, by and large, a living descendant of Jesus of Nazareth might be a big hit on the lecture circuit, but would probably not even be allowed to visit Israel, let alone invited to reign there.
Then I would be grateful that the person that I had put my trust in was such a neat person with wise teachings. Since I’ve never thought about Jesus as a ruler of an earthly kingdom, that wouldn’t influence my thinking about the role of his offspring.
I realize that you may be a non-native speaker of English.
We who do speak English say “What if Jesus were …?” instead of
“What if Jesus was …?” or, safely assuming that he be safely dead, “What if Jesus had been …?”
If I was you, I would continue to concentrate on religion, where correctness is of no significance whatsoever. Jeeshus himself is certainly turning in his grave!
What you mean “What if”? And also, what do you mean with “How would it affect the world today”?
Nothing would change because he WAS a normal man. Above average, shrewed guy with a good message, certainly. Charismatic and a natural born leader, most likely. Son of the big guy, healer of the sick, water to wine party dude, waking from the dead type guy: only if you’re a believer in the christian faith.
Now if the question was: What if it were PROVEN without any reasonable doubt that he was indeed a real man (found the guy’s bones, and found his private journal or some such thing), things might change a little bit.
What else would he be? Those Christians who truly know their religions know Jesus was mortal - that “walking on water” and making all those fish in the desert were metaphors taken a little too far.
BTW, have you been reading The Da Vinci code?
Even if there was Genetic DNA evidence, that doesn’t change the fact that some people will decry “God did it” - An omnipotent God could change any evidence, thus making any proof refutable. So I guess what I’m saying is the question you ask is invallid to a believer in any omnipotent or supernatural being, because to many of them there is no such thing as “irrefutable proof.”
What else would he be? Those Christians who truly know their religions know Jesus was mortal - that “walking on water” and making all those fish in the desert were metaphors taken a little too far.
BTW, have you been reading The Da Vinci code?
Like Kinthalis said, I think the question is what would happen if it was proven?
Dead Sea Scrolls? I’m not too sure on those but aren’t they very very imporant?
The Christan church SHOULD NOT crumble if they truly believe in what their religion was meant to be. I think. Strip their religion down and it’s a single creator god, and a mortal man just happened to spread it. Am I thinking too simplistically? I do that. I’m Pagan.
jimbino if I was you I would restrict grammar corrections to places where the meaning of the OP was unclear, or where grammar is being discussed.
The only ways that Jesus could be proven non-divine would be argued as false by people who currently argue evolution is false. So you would see little change in fundamental Christianity, where as liberal Christianity would probably redefine itself with Joshua ( Christ ) as the most recent prophet rather than God incarnate.
There may be some openings for an increased liberal Islam, but I doubt many Christians would convert to a fundamentalist style of Islam.
Yes Rowan, I did read the daVinci code and a few other books and web sites. It’s an interesting thought but I don’t know of the implications on todays world if those theories were true.
The big secret seems to be of earth shattering importance to the people who believe it but is it really that big off a deal? A few hundred years ago, I would think it could possibly change the world but in todays society would anyone really care?
I dont see how it would change any of Jesus’s teachings, still the same words and thoughts. Would it matter if it came from the son of god(for that matter arent we all God’s children) or from an extremely charismatic leader from ancient galilee?
As for the question about irrefutable proof, for this discussion’s purposes it doesnt matter but if it would help, whatever proof you personaly would need to believe in this theory, some people would need more than others. But since barring an act of God, I dont think this could ever really be proven to satisfy even a small number of people, who don’t already believe it.
As a non-Christian, I am absolutely positive Jesus was a genetically, biologically, and spiritually normal human being. (Of course, since I don’t believe in the existence of souls, I don’t know whether “spiritually normal” is the right term. Suffice it to say that I don’t think he was God, the Son of God, or a prophet.) So frankly, I’m quite jealous of the guy. I would LOVE to be worshipped by two billion or so people almost two thousand years after my death. Guess I’ll have to work on that.
However, I’m sure that for most of the faithful, no “proof” will suffice. Their refutations would range from blind accusations that the “proof” is one of Satan’s lies to quite compelling arguments based on historical evidence – after all, after two thousand years, a lot of EVERYTHING is infused with doubt.
What if…Since the core of my belief is about knowing God, it would be a shock, but not a deal breaker. Feel like the symbolism of Jesus’ life was almost an announcement of a loving God vs. the fairly vengeful one of the old testament. Would we have to start fearing again?:eek:
I suspect the more literalist formulations of Christians would be thrown into something of a tizzy, with various coping mechanisms. The subscribers to more “liberal” formulations would probably absorb the news with barely a ripple. (John Shelby Spong would instantly secure a large advance, for instance. )
I think there are really two interesting questions here.
Setting aside the DaVinci Code theory for a moment it would be rather momentous simply to prove that Jesus was a mortal human being and not divine.
Trouble is, I can’t think of a way that it could be done. How could the remains of Jesus ever be identified as such? DNA? What are we going to match it with?
I think the divinity of Jesus is essentially unfalsifiable. It might put a monkeywrench into things if it could somehow be proven that Jesus had children but it would not be a backbreaker for Christianity (after all, the gospels do not explicitly state that Jesus was celibate or unmarried, that’s just Christian tradition).
Even if it could theoretically be proven that Jesus was just a guy (let’s say aliens from Pluto were here at the time and they video taped it) I still don’t think it would put much of a dent in fundamentalist Christianity. Evolution has been proven and they don’t accept that. I’m sure that any concivable evidence would be perceived as some Satanic conspiracy.
The other interesting question in the OP (sparating it from Jesus) is what would happen if someone could be proven to be a legitimate direct descendant from the Davidic dynasty and was accordingly a candidate for Jewish Messiahood? Davidic lineage is a requirement for that, after all.
Somehow, I doubt that Israel would relinquish a secular, democratic political system in favor of a theocratic monarchy regardless of what Hebrew scripture says.
So were Moses, David, Confucius, Buddha, Mohamed, Julius Caeser, Martin Luther, Churchill, Einstein, even Hitler and Stalin.
You get the picture.
Many people have, single-handedly, changed the course of history. Some for better, some for worse, some… who knows? Jesus was one of this choice club. An extraordinary person, with an extraordinary legacy, in which this atheist does not have to believe in order to realize and respect it.
As for the King of the Jews bit - Family tradition has it that the Abarbanels are direct male descendents of the House of David - so I suppose I** could** personally qualify… maybe I should go into politics (as soon as “Tommy” Lapid steps down form chairmanship of Shinui, so I have a platform to match my ambitions…) ain’t gonna happen, though
If he was just a normal man then he was a raving lunatic. Imagine if you told me you slept with someone besides your wife and I replied with “I forgive you.” You’d think I was nuts. Or how about if I started telling people that the only way to reach God is through me? You’d think I was some sort of mentally deranged kook.
)
ain’t gonna happen, though