What if there are no differences between the sexes?

(This is a repurposed blog post) *
Back in February I did a blog post responding to neurologist Debra Soh, who claimed that research backs the idea that men and women are naturally gendered at the brain level — that male and female brains are different.

Today I want to write in response to a different neurological study (Daphna Joel, , et. al., Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic) that concludes that no, men and women are not fundamentally different at the brain level, that there isn’t a “female brain” and a “male brain”, that there is, instead, a moderate statistical tendency for some constellations of brain features to exist more often in female subjects than in male subjects and vice versa for other brain features, but with a whole lot of overlap between the sexes as well as a whole lot of variance within each sex.

Their findings were reported in the popular press as meaning there’s no brain difference to account for gender difference. *

Taking the popular press interpretation at face value for the moment, what are the implications for variant gender identities such as mine?

In my Oct 23 post, Some People See Me as THE STRAIGHT DOPE, I took people to task for being dismissive of my gender identity because it wasn’t one of the variants they were familiar with. A lot of the pushback I received took the form “OK, smartass, name some characteristics of yourself that are inherently feminine and not accepted in men. What ‘makes you’ a feminine person? If you aren’t one those transgender people who feel the need to transition to the other sex, what makes you so damn different from typical guys?”

It’s a good question. In fact, I regarded it as a “gotcha” question, because there’s no single characteristic (or short list) that exists only as characteristics of female people and also is strongly typical of all female people, so anything I named would provoke the response from some male critics that “Hey, I have those characteristics too but I don’t go around telling people I’m a male girl”, while at the same time provoking this response from some female critics: “I’m a women and the things that you said about yourself don’t apply to me at all, does that make me somehow ‘not one of the women’?”

It’s a good question that sort of asks itself if we dismiss the idea of built-in mental/behavioral differences between the sexes, because if there aren’t any, how can anyone “be” more like the people of a different sex than the sex they are perceived as belonging to?

Transgender blogger MxtrMeike13 addresses this question on their blog entry, referencing the Joel et. al. research. It is a world where a whole lot of transgender politics revolves around the twin notions that there are brain differences between the sexes and that transgender people are people who have the brain characteristics of their target gender, making transgender identity also biologically “built in”; but MxtrMeike dismisses that with a cite of this study and then muses about it, ultimately concluding that nobody knows a reason or a cause for why people are transgender, and, in MxtrMeike’s own case, “I am transgender because I am”.

That position, of course, invites its own type of hostile responses: “Yeah, OK, it’s how you identify, but, hell, you can identify as anything you want if it doesn’t have to tie back to anything except what’s in your own head! You want to identify as a pine tree, go for it, be a pine tree, but if you want us to behave differently towards you, if you want us to go around thinking of you as a pine tree, if you expect us to care, well, why should we if it’s all just stuff that’s in your own head?”
Let me paint an entirely social explanation, one that doesn’t depend at all on biological differences. Even if there are no built-in behavioral differences between the sexes, we still live in a gendered world, a world in which different things are expected of people based on their sex, and also a world in which the same behavior is interpreted quite differently based on the sex of the person.

Think about a boy growing up. At some point, let’s say he gets some feedback about his personality and behavior, a confirmation that he is acting masculine, as expected. For as-of-yet unknown reasons, he experiences this confirmation as a positive thing, whereas the boy in the next row, exposed to the same feedback, experiences it as a criticism. It could be because of things that happened to them in their own pasts, prior to that point. Doesn’t matter: let’s look at how this simple divergence in interpretation of similar experience shapes them differently moving forwards, in their respective futures. The first boy is more likely to think of himself, affirmatively, as one of the boys. The other boy may be prompted to do things to reduce the likelihood of having this kind of thing said to him again.

Next Tuesday, the two boys both receive a different kind of feedback: that how they are behaving seems to some observer to be what would be expected from a girl. The first boy, who had a positive reaction to being viewed as typical of boys, does not care for this new piece of feedback: he finds it insulting, a contradiction of how he currently likes to think of himself. Now it is him, the first boy, who may be prompted to do things (or avoid doing things) so as to limit the likelihood of things like this being said to him again. Meanwhile, the second boy hears this feedback and likes it a whole lot more than being characterized as being typical of boys, and so instead of making it less likely that he’ll behave that way in the future, it makes it more likely that he’ll do so.

So their experiences with social feedback shapes them. They are each forming a sense of self, a gendered sense of self, of how their self its in against the backdrop of boys and girls in general. And the sense of self that they hold in their heads affects their future behavior, and that in turn feeds back into their sense of self, making a loop. After a few years of this, each of these two boys has formed priorities and embraced values; they’ve practiced and honed behavioral nuances, paid attention to some things while ignoring other things. They are learning different lessons. They are becoming gendered, both of them.

But differently. The first boy is growing up mainstream, cisgender, a masculine boy who will probably not significantly question his identity as a man. The second boy on the other hand is already somewhat gender variant and may someday identify as one of the minority orientations or gender identities. There’s a sense in which — for both of them — all this is “in their heads” — but you should be able to see that the process by which it got into their heads is an interactive social process, a process of interacting with real stuff, actual social feedback that’s every bit as tangibly real as differences in neuronal brain structures would be.

  • And, meanwhile, the Joel et. al. article does not actually say there are no built-in brain differences. That’s an oversimplification. What it says is almost exactly what I said in my reply to Debra Soh: that there are a set of characteristics that are somewhat more likely to manifest in male brains than in female brains, and other characteristics more likely to manifest in female brains than in male brains; but there’s so much variation within the same sex that almost none of the characteristics more likely to be in male brains are found in nearly all male brains, and so much overlap between the two sexes that none of the characteristics more likely to be in male brains are nearly entirely missing among female brains. This is an important distinction, I think. The social belief system about differences between the sexes could be adequately supported by these general tendencies, so that there’s a shared social “sense” of what male people are like when compared to female people, a socially shared sense of what “masculinity” and “femininity” consist of.

But at the same time, the looseness of it, the extreme variation within each sex and the high degree of overlaps between the sexes, fully supports the assessment of people that there are no characteristics that make me a woman instead of a man (because no such list of characteristics will ever fit nearly all women but fail to fit nearly all men except me) At the same time, it also supports my own assessment that in our society there are notions of how guys are and how gals are and that I’ve spent most of my lifetime identifying with the latter, embracing other folks’ statements that reinforce that identification and resenting and pushing back against other folks’ statements that put me in the same category as the other male folks. I’ve said it before: I’m an outlier. An exception to the general rule. I’m not unique in being so (other males also fit in better into the constellation of traits associated with female people). Not every male who could be thusly described came to identify with people of the female sex and to reject identification with the other males as “the people who are like me”, but I did and I’m not unique in that either. Those of us who did so are differently gendered. I identify as genderqueer, and as a gender invert.
————————

  • AHunter3 blogs weekly on the subject of being genderqueer, gender politics issues in general, and his ongoing attempts to get his book published. These blog posts tend to be anywhere from 500 to 2500 words in length and are written in the style of a regular column in a periodical.
    The reposting of these blog posts has been cleared with the moderators in advance.

If you take a boy and raise him as a girl would he react like a boy or a girl? That has happened and the answer is that he reacts like a boy.

Male and female thinking is different, simple as that.

There is the whole “nature/nurture” debate as well as the idea that some personality traits can only be triggered during certain times in an individual’s life. Add in the effect of hormones and hormone insensitivity and you can see that it becomes more and more difficult to say X individual will generally think in an X fashion. What does it mean for people such as yourself? Not a whole lot, I don’t think either study invalidates the other, individuals are complex.

This recent documentary from BBC (the link is to a very short version) shows people treating babies and toddlers differently based on the adult’s perception of the baby’s sex. One of the things they say is that research has shown that the different types of play boys and girls are expected to engage on are shown to produce differences in the brain. If that is true, the amount of genderization that’s due to nurture is even larger than anybody thought.

puddlegum, that’s one case. I see it and raise you a biological (as far as anybody could tell) girl, a convent girl, who was legally granted the permission to present as a man back in the 17th century. One case, one case.

Bullshit. We weren’t asking what makes you a feminine person, we were asking what makes you a “male girl.”

Except that if you take a different boy and raise him as a girl you may find that he reacts like a girl. That, too, has happened. And you could take a third boy and raise him as a boy and have it turn out that he reacts like a girl.

Not as simple as that, no, not at all.

Does someone have to self-identify as “differently gendered” in order to be considered as such? Or is it considered bad form to see someone as “differently gendered” without considering whether they think of themselves that way.

Another way to phrase it…you say you’re genderqueer. Based on what I know, that is a label that people use to describe themselves and other self-identifiers. It is not a descriptor that is generally applied to anyone who deviates from gender expectations to a certain degree. Is my understanding correct?

If it is, then I guess I’m wondering if you think the gender non-conformists who are perfectly fine with conventional identifiers (e.g., man and woman) are kinda messing up the game. If you were to meet another straight guy who is into wearing dresses and watching Terms of Endearment, but he is content with being seen as “one of those boys”, how would you perceive his gender?

:confused:

From my experience, the act of self-identification is a critical component of the puzzle. It doesn’t have to be self-identification that uses the exact same terminology (for example, someone might observe me and attach the label “transgender” to me, based on how they use the term).

If he sees himself as one of the boys, then that’s really central to my perception of him — that, no, unlike me, he hasn’t walked around for a good chunk of his lifetime considering himself to be one of the girls instead despite being male. Doesn’t mean we wouldn’t have things in common (at a minimum I’d expect that he, too, has run into his share of opprobrium for this choice of garments and entertainment). But if he has remained identified with the (other) boys, there’s a limit to any identity-in-common that we have; I would not feel like I was with “another one like me”.

To your first point (in bold), I say “why” very much matters. If Boy2’s reason for be rejecting a boy identity (and embracing a girl one) is because he learned from a young age to associate masculinity with evil and ugliness, then is he is really a “girl” the same way your average girl is? In my view, no. Your average girl doesn’t see herself as a girl because of anti-masculinity (or even pro-femininity); being a girl just is for her. And because of this simplicity, she can do “boy” things sometimes without feeling like it threatens her self-concept. She doesn’t necessarily have to enshroud herself in all things pink and sparkly for her to feel confident in her femininity; she is free to be who she is without regard to scripted notions about how boys and girls behave.

I know it’s probably annoying to have gender analogized to race, but bear with me. You could just as easily have posited the existence of two African-Americans, with one (Black1) accepting feedback that he is of that race and the other (Black2) rejecting the same kind of feedback and claiming another racial identity (Asian) instead. What should we make of Black2’s insistence that he’s in really black, when he admits to associating blackness with a bunch of negative stereotypes?

I think my response was self-explanatory. I thought it was disingenuous for you to be saying people were asking you to explain “feminine” when what we were asking you to explain is “male girl.” They aren’t the same thing.

That is interesting.

What if he doesn’t feel like he is “one of the boys” OR “one of the girls” and instead does’t think along gender lines at all? Perhaps he doen’t have a feminist/gender studies background nor the interest in identity politics, and the word “man” isn’t laden with baggage for him.

If he were to say “I consider myself a straight feminine guy. All the genderqueer stuff goes over my head, I’m afraid”, how would that affect your treatment of him? Would you treat him the same as you would a “male man”? Would you treat him like a “male femme”? Or would you treat him like you’d treat anyone else whose gender is unknown to you?

I would have a hard time perceiving a feminine guy in a skirt as belonging to the same group as a macho man who thinks skirts only belong on “chicks”. Even if their self-professed identities were the same.

There is at least one well-known difference in physical structure between the male and female brain. It is caused by a mechanism called “X-inactivation”, which has pervasive influence on the female body. The expression of one X chromosome is suppressed randomly in development, resulting in the female forming as a sort of patchwork creature. This does also happen across the brain, but how it influences thought and learning is unclear (to me, at least).

A large fraction of gender-based behavior probably is culturally formed. How we are expected to behave as men and women, and how that affects our lot in life may well cause us to suppress some preferences that would mark us as ill-adapted to our defined roles or make it difficult to form relationships.

Still, I think the major differences between men and women are driven by our individual hormone stews, and it might be an interesting learning experience to spend a month with a swapped hormone balance, to see how it affects one’s outlook.

How are you defining “African-American”? What does it entail to “accept that he is of that race”?

If Black1 has 90% African genetic heritage and Black2 has 90% non-African, including a substantial Asian component, then what we should make of it is that we were wrong in our simplistic skin-tone based judgement.

As a girl who didn’t behave like a stereotypical girl, I took no joy in being likened to a “boy”. Nor did I like it when people praised me for being “girly”. I guess I was just one of those weirdos who hated being pigeoned in any gendered box. I liked cutting the hair off all my dolls not because I was a “boy”, but because I was a monstro. monstro is all about tearing up shit. :slight_smile:

naita, I think you with the face was clear that the sole reason for Black2’s rejection of the “African American” label is due to their own negative perceptions of African Americans, not due to their genetic or ancestral make-up.

If someone who is 90% European, 10% African wants to reject the “black” label, I say more power to them. But if they reject that label on the basis of “well, I hate when people say I’m black because black people do stuff I hate, but I like when people think I’m Asian. So I’m gonna go with Asian!”, then yeah, that’s bullshit. I like when people liken me to Halle Berry, but that doesn’t mean I can say I’m Halle Berry without raising some eyebrows. I’m all for self-identity, but I think a self-identity that is intentionally oppositional to one’s social identity (the identity others perceive you to be) is risky, at least in terms of respectability.

It’s a hypothetical; don’t fight it. But let’s say the two people are of 100% sub Saharan
descent if that eliminates confusion. The crux is that the one that disputes being black largely because of internalized negativity about what it means to be black, and effectively gloms onto another racial identity to separate oneself from the negativity.

My identity was a “girl who defies categorization” too. Not a tomboy, not a girly girl, just a girl who watched Gi Joe and Jem.

Me and you had some Punky Brewster tendencies growing up.

A large percent of the people who identify as “genderqueer” are people who do not identify with either gender exclusively — they identify as ‘agender’ (“not having a gender”) or as ‘genderfluid’ (“not having a single fixed gender”) or as ‘nonbinary’ (“not having an identity that can be expressed using the two-choice man-vs-woman binary”). These, however, are people for whom words like “man” probably are baggage-laden, since they are rejecting those as applicable to themselves. (And “woman”, also).

I’ve run into several such people. I find them fascinating. Many of them are really oblivious to the world of gender expectations around them — rather than being rebellious in their gender-nonconformity, they go through life almost unaware of other people’s notions of them on the basis of gender.

Many of them that I’ve known have happened to be people who were so thoroughly earmarked as “weird” by others in a general way that any additional reaction to their gender expression (or lack thereof) was a signal lost in the overall noise, and they didn’t notice it.

Yeah, me too. Sometimes I think that’s my hangup, sometimes I think it is, or should be, compellingly obvious that in our social context they are sending different signals and will be reacted to differently.