BTW, KrapMart is open all day Easter Sunday. I’ll be damned if I ever work on that day again.
Ooops, Cantrip, I was thinking of something else DITWD said on this thread.
So, refer to my comments about Sundays. A lot of people are pressed to work them. As I know first-hand. So that’s not “off limits” anymore.
Thea was finding the fact that she had to work intolerable because the tips weren’t coming in.
A perfectly valid cause for dismay, and a tailor-made occasion for a pit-rant.
Tres unfortunate that she got carried away and had to dig herself into a hole from which she must montor the piety of strangers…
Excuse me.
Monitor
As you were.
yosemitebabe:
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No one has to be there, but maybe some people want to be there.
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In my view, Christmas, especially as a national holiday, is far from necessary. So where does that leave us?
And not being in church for one holiday isn’t going to kill anyone either, is it? This wasn’t about family, this was about Thea making Xmas Eve church services.
You know, four times a year, during the periods in which corporations report their quarterly earnings, my company has five-week vacation blackouts because our volume increases about tenfold. No scheduled days off. One of those periods, every year, happens to include the date of my wedding anniversary. As long as I work at this company (which will be for a long time), I will never be able to have vacation time for my anniversary. So my wife and I plan things to do on the weekened closest, and save our time off for sometime before or after the blackout. Those are the kinds of things adults do in situations like that.
Guinastasia:
Who exactly are you to tell people what they need and don’t need to do? Who gave you that license?
Is God going to kill you if you aren’t in church on Xmas Eve? No? Then shut the hell up. Nobody is preventing you from worshipping your deity.
If you’re so desperate to be in church that you can’t handle not being there one week out of 52, maybe you have a serious addiction.
Oh, and the peace and goodwill thing really shines through all the "fuck you"s. You’re a real exemplary subject of your religion.
pldennison
Now, to make your situation more similar to someone in retail (and other service industries), imagine that you also never get both Saturday and Sunday {if you get either)except when you’re on vacation, never get a three day weekend, almost never get any holiday off and don’t get home from work until 11 pm a couple of days a week. You can make plans to go away for the weekend closest to your anniversary.They can’t.You presumably can at least go out to dinner on your anniversary. They may not be able to.If you wanted to throw yourself an anniversary party (closer to the situation at Christmas,although not exactly the same), you would probably have it Friday or Saturday night,even if your anniversary was Wednesday, because that would be when most of your guests were off. I suppose when my husband was in retail, if his company was open on Christmas, we could have had Christmas dinner on the closest Thursday (his only day off during the Christmas season ) no matter when Christmas was. Unfortunately, he would have been the only one there most years. People in service industries may never have the same day off as their family and friends except when their employers are closed, which right now is pretty much limited to Christmas and possibly Thanksgiving . It’s one thing to know you can never count on having a widely celebrated holiday off (whether its Christmas or July 4th) because you’re providing a necessary service. It’s another to know you couldn’t because your employer doesn’t think enough of it’s employees to either close or scale back for even one day a year.
Cantrip
That’s true, and perhaps Thea should have been annoyed at her employer rather than the customers, but it’s also true that the casino wouldn’t have been open on Christmas a second time if there was no business the first time. I worked in a fast food restaurant that opened on Thankgiving years before it was common. Only happened once-not enough business to be worth it.
You’re assumimg that a “Shabbos goy” would be acceptable. My understanding ( from my husband’s not-particularly- observant former employer) is that an observant Jew is not only prohibited from working on the Sabbath and religious holidays, but also may not profit from another’s work. It’s also a different decision. He may lose customers due to his religious observance ( or he may gain them*), but no one is going to take his store away from him because he was closed on Saturday.
- A large electronics chain in my area is not only closed Christmas and Thanksgiving , but runs ads stating that they are closed to allow their employees to spend the holiday with their families and it saddens them that their competitors choose not to do so. I make it a point to shop there, and I’m sure others do,too. Could more than make up for the business they lose by being closed those two days.
doreen, been there, done that. I worked three years in retail and two in radio. You’ll notice I don’t work in them anymore. Working in those industries is a choice, and if one doesn’t like the consequences of that choice, one is free to pick another job.
yosemitebabe, I’ve also worked through college and after in service industries (mostly waiting tables and catering). I had to work New Year’s Eve several years running. Sometimes the tips were good, sometimes people figured we must be getting paid a boatload of bucks to be there, so the tips totally bit. Y’know what? I sucked it up, and left that business.
And FWIW, Thea’s rant was directed at the customers. Lots of people don’t celebrate either the religious Christmas holiday OR a “family” holiday - or if they do, they do it by taking a vacation to, for example, Las Vegas. Rather than get into it, I think we agree at the core - Thea’s employer is less respectful of others’ observances than he/she/it could be. But to blame the customers for coming just doesn’t strike me as very productive.
doreen, I frankly don’t know all the rules relating to the use of a Shabbos goy. I suppose it depends on how observant the particular shopkeeper is. And I take your point about the potential for additional business. But as an analogy to Thea’s situation, which is what I believe the hypothetical was offered as, I don’t think it holds water.
Look, I have resigned myself to not being able to buy beer on Sunday before noon. I have resigned myself to stores being closed on Christmas, etc. FWIW, I don’t shop on those days, and if I need a quart of milk or something the Korean greengrocer is usually open. If the stores were closed, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for the customers. But it will only take one retailer in a sector to realize that s/he can have all the pent-up demand to him/herself to “screw it up” for everyone. Y’know what? C’est la vie, man, c’est la vie.
And pldennison, great post. 
My point stands, PL. I mean, you don’t NEED to. NEED and WANT are two different things. Are you going to die if you don’t go shopping one day? Will your life be ruined forever? In other words, is gambling a necessity? No, church may not be to YOU. But to some people, it’s very important. Much more important than gambling.
No, of course not. Maybe that’s the same with church, but, silly me, I think my religious beliefs are more important than my shopping habits. Maybe some people actually believe that going to church and their beliefs are more important than saving 50 cents off of orange juice…
Maybe my fuck yous were a little off. But you know what? I am SICK and tired of how nasty everyone is this time of year. I had some guy go off on me because he had to wait in a long line. Boo hoo. I had to stay on my feet all day, so shut the fuck up.
It’s not about people not being able to have freedom to worship as they so choose-not because it would harm others, but because it would offend the selfishness of others. It’s the PRINCIPLE of the thing.
If you don’t want to celebrate, fine. Go out on the 23, stock up on movies, junk food, books, etc etc…and take a break.
What sickens me, is the big bosses who make us work on holidays do not do the same. THEY choose to be home. I once asked my personel manager if she was working Easter Sunday-and her response: God no! I’d never work Easter! But she bitches anyone out who dares request off…
Geeze, there are 364 days to shop? Can’t you shop another day? Is there something special about Xmas that commands you to shop? Yeah, I could go to church another day-but this is a HOLY DAY to ME. It’s a special celebration. Shopping ain’t.
I don’t care if you don’t believe the same as I do. But don’t call any of us selfish and close minded for wanting to practice our beliefs when you want to shop.
I can’t believe you’d say shopping should be more important than someone going to Vespers. Even if YOU aren’t religions, Thea is. And it’s important to her.
As far as working retail being a CHOICE-no, it’s not. Right now, I have no other options, because I’m trying to get an education, and no other type of work is available to me-trust me, I have looked. I have an internship coming up in April, and hopefully it’s a start. But just because it’s a choice doesn’t mean I have to be treated like shit, does it?
:rolleyes:
grrrr…sorry guys…I am shaking right now I’m so mad. I hate people telling me to get another job-I’ve tried. Right now, financial situations have forced me to have a job, and there aren’t many options open to me at this point.
Why is that beside the point? Don’t try to preach to me. You’re not better than me. You’re not.
Yes, they certainly are. And you feel that your WANTS are more important than other people’s WANTS, and that they should reprioritize their lives to accommodate your WANTS.
Are you going to die if you don’t go to church one day?
Will yours?
Is church?
Of course you do. The problem is that you want everyone else to think that your religious beliefs are that important as well.
Your feet, your religious beliefs, you, you, you . . . doesn’t youre religion have something to say about this attitude? I think it does, and it isn’t pretty. Shit, maybe we should make sure you’re in church more often, because there appears to be a fundamental disconnect going on. Apparently it’s all surface and no substance. It’s important to you to appear to be Ms. Pious Churchgoing Believer, but when it comes to other people, it’s “Shut the fuck up! Mememememememememe!”
Again with telling other people how to spend their time off. Here’s a thought–maybe it isn’t any of your fucking business? You think? You just want people to rearrange their lives so you and you alone can have your way. Well, guess what–nobody cares. You simply aren’t the only person in the world.
And when you own or operate a business, you can be off whenever you want. Now you want priveleges you haven’t earned? Sheesh.
Is there something special about it that should prevent me from doing so if I want to?
Who said I wanted to shop? I never left the house on Xmas Eve.
Good thing I didn’t say that.
To put it bluntly, too fuckin’ bad. Sometimes you get the clean end of the stick, and sometimes you get the shit end. It’s called “life,” and I notice God did not point his Mighty Finger of Smiting down from the sky and kill her for missing it. I bet ice water is important to people in Hell, but I bet they don’t get any.
Yes, it is. Nobody, but nobody is forcing you to work in the job you have. Nobody.
If you have no skills besides operating a cash register, stocking shelves and helping customers, whose fault is that again? Oh that’s right–it’s yours.
Well, is it or isn’t it a choice? You said it’s not, then at the end of the same paragraph you say it is. Which is it?
Speaking of ice water, perhaps everyone should just dunk their heads in some and LET IT GO. A little mutual respect goes a long way, disregarding the frothings of some.
I mean, even if it IS a choice, does that mean I have to be treated like shit? It is a choice in that, if I choose NOT to work, I can just drop out of college and live on the streets? And I hope you’re playing the Devil’s Advocate when you say it’s my fault I have no marketable skills…other wise, what the fuck am I going to college for?
I mean, because I choose to wear a short skirt, does that give someone the right to rape me?
No, I won’t die if I don’t go to church on a holy day. But it’s something that only comes once a year. I would be sorely upset if I missed Easter Vigil, because it’s very beautiful-a full orchestra, candles, hymns, prayers, the whole bit. It’s a special, once a year thing. Shopping ain’t, pal.
Why is it selfish for Thea and I to ask to go to church on one special day a year, but it’s NOT selfish for you to go out and shop?
Maybe I see it as this: the employers want to make the money, but they aren’t willing to work for it themselves-they have us do it instead. And for the record, had I been scheduled to work Xmas Eve or Xmas Day, I’d call off and tell them where to put it.
I also respect someone who chooses to close down on a special day and risk losing money simply because of personal principles. It seems to me, too many are more concerned with the Almighty dollar.
No, it doesn’t mean that, but I question the extent to which “working on Xmas Eve” is equivalent to “being treated like shit.” You don’t always get everything you want. That doesn’t mean you are being treated like shit. It means like isn’t fair.
If you’re literally that destitute, there is a boatload of college grant money available to you. Many small liberal arts colleges bend over backwards to give people in those situations free rides.
How the hell should I know? But no, I’m not playing Devil’s Advocate. It doesn’t take a college education to obtain a non-retail job.
Uh, yeah, that’s the same thing. Melodramatic, much? :rolleyes:
Believe me (and I know what retail is like) you haven’t seen abuse until you’ve had the CFO or IR director of a Fortune 1000 company on the phone tearing you a new asshole because his quarterly earnings, which he sent over 20 minutes ago and entail 1,500 words in the body and 7 tables, have not been formatted and have not crossed the wire yet.
OTOH, it comes every year, and on the same day, to boot. Christmas, anyway. Easter is also easily predictable.
Oh, so you’re pissed not because it’s a religious obligation, but because it’s pretty? That really does little to legitimize your gripey, whiney argument.
Two. Easter and Christmas. That’s two. And maybe you missed the part where I said I didn’t leave the house on Christmas Eve.
The reason it’s selfish is that I don’t want to force everyone else to shop; you want to force them not to.
BTW, do you often volunteer to work on the holy days for your Jewish brethren, so that they may have them off?
R.H.I.P.
Do you didn’t even work? Then what the bloody hell are you complaining about? Incidentally, if I was your boss and you did that, you could be assured of that living-on-the-street scenario above.
Xmas is make-or-break time for a large proportion of retailers. Some of them count on 80% or more of their annual volume during December. If that means they have to be open on Dec. 24, I don’t see a problem with that. If they don’t make that volume, it means people lose jobs. But, hey, that’s cool, as long as you get to go to church, right?
As far as Dec. 25 goes, considering the anticipated volume, it probably costs more for a retailer to be open than to be closed.
Um, no, not just because it’s pretty. That too, but it’s very special, holy, lovely, and very warm and spiritual.
And by going into a store, aren’t you kind of forcing the employees to work?
I AM getting grant money. But I’m only eligible for so much-they said I can’t get work study. It fucking sucks, but you do what you have to do. When my dad lost his job, after my parents had just bought a house, he had to eat shit several times and do stuff he didn’t like. He had a choice whether or not to feed his family. Some of us DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER OPTIONS! Why do you assume I haven’t looked into grant money?
I see this situation as a two way street. You didn’t go out on Xmas, but you bitch because we complain about people who do. I didn’t work on Xmas, but I complain that some had to.
Maybe I feel really angry about that. Maybe I see people getting screwed over MONEY. And I’m NOT a CEO-I’m a lowly cashier. I’m at the bottom of the ladder. Just because life sucks doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to bitch!
I didn’t say working on Xmas=treated like shit. But when I do work those days, I DO get treated like shit, because others are nasty and rude. THat is what we get. Have you even read some of the tales at Customer’s Suck? See how crummy employees are treated in the name of getting rich?
Right now, I don’t HAVE any Jewish Brethen to work for. However, if I did, and someone asked me to work a Jewish holiday for them, and they’d work Xmas for me-yes, I would do it if I were able to.
And fine, they fire me…like I said, I can get another RETAIL job. Even though it will suck just the same.
And oh yes, if we close early on Xmas Eve, we’re all going to be out of a job…WHO is being melodramatic???
Sheesh, I’m not the only one who feels this way, trust me.
*someone help me…this is a VERY sensitive subject with me, which is why I’m so pissy.
**what is RHIP?
I’m surprised Magic Mountain wasn’t open. Disneyland is, 365 days a year. That’s right. Disney employees don’t get a single holiday off, unless they ask for it and they have the seniority. Yes, senority matters. But when I worked for Disneyland, I expected to work every holiday, even after my senority was high enough that I shouldn’t have had to.
The one thing DL does do is set up sign-up sheets asking if you’d prefer an early or late shift on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Does the sheet guarantee that you’ll get the time you want? No - but they do try.
And my mother, who is VERY high in senority in her location at Disneyland, had to work on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day this year, because crowds have been so high. (In fact, they had to close the park this Christmas Day because it was over capacity.) Did she complain about this? No. Would she have preferred to stay home or attend church? Of course. But, as has been said before on this thread, she knew when she took the job that she would have to work some holidays.
I’m sorry your job interfered with your preferred time to attend church, Thea, I truly am. But for some people it’s a family tradition to go to the casinos and gamble, just like some people go to Disneyland for the same reason. And you did get to attend church, even if it wasn’t when you would have liked to. Mom didn’t even get to do that.
Now, if you were more pissed off about the whole not getting tips thing, that I could certainly understand…
Cantrip,
I guess I wasn’t really clear. I don’t think the decision of the Jewish proprietor deciding to close on Saturday,even though its possible that enough customers prefer the competing store that is open to eventually lose his business is quite the same as Thea’s option of refusing to work and likely being fired ( she’s on probation)
I don’t think complaining about the customers is very productive either, but there seem to be at least a few people (not you) who think that because a particular day has no significance to them, they have a right not to be inconvenienced.
pldennison:
It’s nice that you were able to leave, and I’m happy my husband was able to, but it ain’t that simple for everyone.No one is working at K-Mart for minimum wage because that was their life’s dream. Some may be there because they have no skills (which may or may not be their fault), but some are in service industries because there are fewer and fewer jobs available that don’t involve service.I haven’t seen anyone advocate that it should be illegal for casinos, stores, etc to be open, only that employers should be more considerate of employees on a day that most don’t want to work. No one has said that employers with enough staff willing to volunteer to work should close. Were you never unhappy when you worked those schedules? Did you never want it to be otherwise until the day you changed jobs? If your employer had been one who chose to close on Christmas and closed relatively early on Christmas Eve (because I don’t think anyone has complained about working at all on Dec 24, only in the evening), would you have said " Oh, no, we can’t close. People will want to shop and we can’t deny them ".I don’t think so.
(and BTW, I never request time off on Jewish holidays and Black Solidarity Day so that my coworkers with less seniority who actually do celebrate them can be off)
No. If a store is closed, then no matter how badly I want to buy something from them. and no matter how much I rant and rave and bang on the door, nobody is going to open it. But if there a thousand people banging and knocking, the retailer might see some benefit to being open.
Because you made it sound as if you had not. Believe me, I have tens of thousand of dollars in student loan debt. You aren’t the first person to ever go through these things. Nevertheless, if you have the skills to work in retail, then you have the skills to work in lots of jobs where you can rest assured you will be off on the holidays.
No, I bitch because you and Thea start getting into all the “shoulds.” People “should” all stay home–because we want to go to church. Everything “should” be closed–because we celebrate Christmas. It isn’t your business to state what everything else “should” be or do. It is your business to make your decisions and abide by the consequences of them.
I am not going to explain to you for a fourth time my three years in retail, including Xmas '89, Xmas '90, and Xmas '91. If you’re going to work in retail, you’re going to have to eat a shit sandwich every now and then, and you’re going to have to smile and take every last miserable minute of it. Although, IMHO, most of the tales at “Customer Suck” are indicative of the piss-poor state of customer service these days, since it is populated largely by adolescent twits who want to do as little work as possible to fund their leisure-time activities.
I’ll draws picture if it will help:
- Retailers count on anywhere from 60-80% of total annual sales volume occurring during the Christmas shopping period;
- The week prior to Christmas can account for large spikes in sales volume;
- Christmas Eve can be the largest spike of all that week, since there are a lot of last-minute shoppers, or people who are out and see things that suddenly catch their eye as good gifts;
- No, being closed Christmas Eve isn’t particularly going to put anyone out of a job, but the retailer has the duty, particularly if he/she is part of a chain, to maximize volume.
I think you need to do both yourself and your customers a favor and get out of retail. As far as the church thing, you may as well accept now that you will not get to go every Christmas Eve and every Easter for your entire life. Sometime you’re going to miss it; sometimes due to circumstances beyond your control, sometimes as a direct result of choices you make.
Yes, fine, you need to work right now to pay for college. Yes, you think you’re confined to retail. Well, part and parcel of that is that sometimes you’re going to work holidays. You can’t have everything all at once. Does that mean you can’t be upset about it? No. But to have the sheer audacity to tell total strangers what they should do on a holiday that they might not even believe in or celebrate boggles the mind. To blame people you don’t even know for the circumstances in which you live, and demand that they all change their behavior to accommodate your religious preferences . . . the arrogance is astounding.
Be pissed, but don’t tell me that I (or anyone else) have to change my life to accommodate your religious beliefs. Hell, you and Thea should pray to your God that I come into your establishments on the holiday, since I tip over 100 percent. And I’d find a way to slip a retail worker something on those days, too, if it came up.
Rank Has Its Priveleges.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by blessedwolf *
**
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Chanukah is not exactly a secular holiday. While there is no prohibition against working (as there is on the Sabbath and “major” holidays), there are definately religious aspects of the holiday that are observed. It is treated as a secular holiday because there are those that tried to make Chanukah into a “seperate but equal” competition with Christmas.