Just a sort of related-to-the-OP thing here… Back when I was a topless dancer, I remember working on both Easter Sunday and Mother’s Day and finding it humorous to see how many people were there. Heh.
I worked Christmas Eve, too. Made around $90 in 45 minutes and went home.
No, it is NOT run by whiny stupid underage twits. It is simply a place to vent about the crap we put up with. About bosses who screw you left and right.
And no, that’s not RHIP. They’re making money off of something they didn’t do. It’s called being an ass.
For the record, I rarely if ever go to church anymore. And no, I don’t think there should be a law against things being open on holidays (except labor day, since it’s for LABORERS!). But employers and customers need to be more understanding of those who do so much work for such little recognition.
Geeze, quit the whole, the employee should be sooooo grateful to the customer crap and that we should thank God on our knees for you.
And for the record, I am ALWAYS polite, curteous and helpful. But I’m off the clock now and it’s MY TIME to VENT!
Guinastasia, I think pldennison meant that customer service desks in many retail establishments are run by those aforementioned twits - oft is the time that I’ve gone to the customer service desk, been the only person waiting, and still been made to wait several minutes because the young people behind the counter were chatting about last night’s date or some such, and didn’t break off the conversation to attend to the customer.
That you get treated like shit because people who waited till the last minute are in a bad mood sucks, and someone should say something to those people. I often do.
doreen, I think the situations are analogous. Sure, it might take the business-owner longer to lose enough business to have to close (if that’s the ultimate outcome), whereas Thea could be fired right there. Either way, they’ve chosen religious observance over material needs - admirable, if short-sighted.
Guinastasia, this morning’s New York Times business section was filled with stories of a retail season of smaller-than-anticipated growth, flat sales and lots of people who are going to lose their jobs because the companies that employ them didn’t make enough money between Thanksgiving and Christmas to justify retaining all their employees. So I don’t think Phil was being melodramatic at all.
As for the business owners, although this might not apply to Thea’s employer, many of them actually did have to work their way to the top and pay their dues along the way. Just because now they’re able to enjoy the fruits of their labors (take holidays off) doesn’t mean they were able to as they were working themselves up to that position. The apparent sense of entitlement of lots of people who are working their way up the ladder (or who are just starting at the bottom) is disheartening - even if someone remains a non-manager, ultimately that individual will be senior enough to choose holidays to be off. Yeah, that sucks, but that’s life.
We live in a country where everyone is so proud of Capitalism and Freedom. Eventually, we learn (sooner or later) that, in our society, the almighty dollar rules. I’ll guess that 9 out of 10 people in Guinastasia’s position (service sector employees) agree with her perspective. But I’ll guarantee you that more than 9 out 10 store owners disagree. I’m sure they would like to give time off to their hard-working employees. But once they think of the $$$$ that they would be losing, they quickly dispose of the idiotic idea.
So Guinastasia, the only way to change these things is to be the business owner or the person with the money. While I admit that I don’t know you, I suspect that once you reach that level you may reconsider your view.
There are countries where there are severe punishments for keeping businesses open on religious occasions. Would you want to live there?
There are also countries where people would beg to work on any holiday just for the pay. Would you want to live there? (Actually in a couple of years, we may all be begging for work on holidays).
So, in short, if you’re happy with the freedom and capitalism of our society, then you’ll have to live with the fact that most decisions (especially business decisions) come down to cash flow. And the decison which maximizes cash flow is almost always the “Right” decison.
FTR-
I don’t mind having to work Christmas- I’ve done it every year since I got into this Godforsaken business.My faith is what keeps me sane. As long as I can make it to Church, I’m pretty much OK. Most of the time.
I’m not really that upset that I didn’t make much money- kind of expected it, so I wasn’t disappointed. I am, however, bewildered by the fact that customers are generally so stingy with people who have to work on the holidays in order to serve them.
I have not sacrificed my religious obligations in order to pay the rent. I could easily have stayed at a job that paid much less, but was still adequate to make a living. I would not have taken this job if it did not have a schedule that would allow me to meet those obligations. If worse comes to worse, and I can’t make liturgy at my own church, there are about a gazillion Latin Rite Catholic churches that have about eighty-seven masses each on Sundays and Holy Days where I can meet my obligations. I actually do it fairly often. But going to a huge church where everybody is a stranger, and the congregation is so big that you’re just a number on the parish enrollment sheet, or a body in a pew, isn’t the same as going to a church with a small congregation that has bonded together to form an extended family.
Also, I know that as I gain some seniority, I’ll earn days off, and can request Holy Days off.
But I was unhappy because I had to miss the BIG CELEBRATION at my church. Fine, I met my obligation by going Christmas morning. But it wasn’t the same.
I was highly irritated that my employer couln’t see their way clear (big corporation) to operate with a reduced staff so that employees could have either Christmas Eve or Christmas day off to be with their families. Not that big a deal for me, since it’s just me and my mom here in town, but still…
I figured I would get mostly Asians, who mostly practice religions that don’t have any major holidays at this time of year, and people who don’t have any family to speak of. Which is OK. If you don’t have anyone to spend the holidays with, and want to come hang out with me and get rid of some of your excess cash in the process, go ahead. I figured there would be some customers, but business would be slow.
What I got was the aforementioned, plus a lot of people who, apparently had simply chosen to gamble in Vegas rather than go home to spend the holiday with their families. OK, some of us have dysfunctional families, but can’t we put aside our fights for one day out of the freaking year? I have a friend who worked at Ceaser’s Palace during the seventies and he told me that on Christmas Day, you could fire a cannon through the casino and not hit anyone. Now, the casinos are as busy as they would be on any other given day of the year, if not busier.
I also have encounterd an attitude among friends, co-workers, exemplified in the extreme by pldennison that religion is little more than a social/recreational activity. They don’t seem to grok that for those of us who believe, showing up for church on Sundays and Holy Days is an obligation to God Almighty and not just an excuse to hang out with our friends and snack on a piece of bread dipped in wine.
Family doesn’t matter.
Faith doesn’t matter.
Being amused and bowing down to the Almighty Dollar are all that matters.
Nothing that you can’t put a monetary price on has value.
I find the whole situation depressing.
For the first time since I came home to the Catholic Church, I was depressed on Christmas.
If my employer forced me to work on the Jewish holidays, I would have to quit. I’m very fortunate, though - I have vacation time that I can fully dedicate to using for the holidays. Not everyone is so lucky. My mother has lost jobs as a result of taking off time for Jewish holidays, no matter how much time she made up - and she couldn’t afford it easily either, being a single parent. I realize it’s a very difficult thing to do, but if your religious observance is that important to you, you make the sacrifice.
Sheesh, what a bunch of Scrooges we have here! (Sorry, I couldn’t resist! 
)
You know, I brought up the Super Bowl example earlier, and I think there is something to it. If we took the “religious” out of this whole equation (sp?) would so many of you be chanting “too bad, boo fucking hoo” with such vehemence? I understand that many of you think that anything religious is pretty useless. Hey - I am not here to argue with you. But I feel that anything related to football is pretty useless as well. But I guess I still am soft-hearted enough to not begrudge people their enjoyment of it, even if it means they take a day off to do it. (And I am not saying that any of you actively wish people would not enjoy Christmas, but your “boo fucking hoo” attitude does seem a little less than warm-hearted.)
I cannot explain how SICK I am of the football-obsessed town I live in, and the displays of football-fanaticism everywhere I look. And it lasts the whole fricking season. I hate it. But still - more power to them for enjoying it. At least they are finding something to be enthusiastic about, and I think the world needs more of that. So I am happy that they can enjoy football, no matter how much I loathe it. And if it ever meant that a lot of people took the day of Super Bowl off, I wouldn’t fight it. As long as I was forewarned that things would be closed on Super Bowl, (if it were ever to come to that) I’d cope. Because a lot of people enjoy it so much, I’d not rain on their parade. And I guess I am dismayed that not everyone shares my attitude. What? Is it so terrible that once in a while a store is closed? That people are doing something special, like gathering with friends and family on a “special” day? Does it matter so much to you that it might be a religious day? Why the push to have less and less “special” days - religious or not? Because that’s what’s going on here - when people are expected to work all of these (formerly off limits) holidays - it basically obliterates the the holiday’s “specialness”. I don’t want less special days, I would rather we had more. Even Super Bowl, dammit!
Sure. No one has to have Christmas off, no one has to watch the Super Bowl either. Or attend that Super Bowl party. Or observe anything “fun”, as a group, or a community. But these holidays bring a lot of enjoyment to so many people, and they aren’t an everyday occurance.
I guess my attitude or philosophy is - what is so terrible about employers having a heart? About people having a heart? So what if a holiday/event is not to your taste? Why be so apathetic (or almost gloating) when someone else is upset because they missed something that is important to them?
As far as dead-end jobs go - you know, some people will NEVER get out of that rut. Maybe that is their problem, and “their fault”, but where’s your compassion? Since when is screwing over the little guy (because he doesn’t have the wherewithall to get a “decent” job) something that we shouldn’t fight, or complain about? It sounds a little elitist, to just not give a damn that these poor working schlubs that serve your meals, bag your groceries, and work at the stores you frequent. Just because you were fortunate to get out of that rut doesn’t mean that you don’t have to give a damn about the poor schlubs that are still trapped in it. And as far as the Big Bosses at these stores/restaurants who NEVER work holidays - I’m with Guinistasia (sorry, I hope I’m spelling your name right) on that. It makes them look like an ass, or more likely, a hypocrite, to demand that their working drones miss all the holidays, while they sit cozy at home. It’s bad for morale. But then again, working drones really aren’t entitled to anything, are they? I mean, that’s how these working schlubs are treated all the time. So God Forbid we fight to change that tradition! Let’s take away more of their holidays, while we’re at it!
Well, this was a disjointed rant, but I’m glad I got it out of my system!
Beautiful, yosemitebabe. You said everything I’ve been trying to say, and more-and you said it far better than I ever could.
Hmmm. Seems like your employer could get into trouble with the EEOC for refusing to make reasonable accomodation for your religious beliefs. I’m lucky enough to be able to work in my religous obligations with my work schedule, but I think Jews have fewer options open to them as far as being able to make it to synagogue services, plus the fact that the faith absolutely forbids working on certain Holy Days.
I’ve had to work many Jewish holidays, even though I know I should have gone to services. I care quite a bit about the work that I do, which is why I don’t lose sleep if I don’t go. One Yom Kippur, my ship left from Norfolk, VA to the Mediterranean. I did my part alongside my shipmates, without even thinking about the holiday.
As for EEO, “reasonable accomodation” only goes so far. It is possible to be “too religious” for a given company. I’ve been at companies forced to fire people because they would not work the shift schedule required of their job. “Reasonable accomodation” assumes that both parties are willing to come to the middle and work out a mutually acceptable agreement.
Finally, I would like to know on what you base your assertion that Jews have fewer options for services? We have just as many options for services as anyone else.
Robin
First things first: sorry for the crack about the lousy tips being your true motivation for being here in the Pit today. It was not only cynical, it called into question the sincerity of your faith, and that is not an activity that I feel comfortable engaging in.
However, I stand by statement that such a motivation would make for a truly Pit-worthy rant (talk to Satan. He has experience in ranting on the general subject of gratuities, and could prove to be a veritable fountain of wisdom and perspective).
As to the irony:
Thea said:
Speaking as a former choir member in as many as three Catholic church services per week (at three different churches, too), I can attest to the fact that your basic Christmas Eve service is generally the must-see treat of any liturgical calendar, and I can only say that I was very fortunate that only one of the parishes I sang in required the services of the choir for Midnight Mass (so I didn’t have to choose). But that was also at the bottom of the dilemma that dared not speak its name: Are we making this extra-special effort for God, or for the congregation? If it’s really for God, why were all the tone-deaf and weak-diaphragmmed, and rhythm-impaired candidates weeded out of the choir in the audition process? They should have a right to make a joyful noise, too, shouldn’t they? The weight of the evidence suggests that the BIG CELEBRATION is at least partially intended for the benefit of the congregation (or, and this is the part that I fear may really set you off, the audience).
Okay, I said it. The Christmas Eve Vesper service, like the Christmas Eve Midnight Mass, is, to an extent, ENTERTAINMENT for the attendees.
Great coffee mug I read once: “Hug a musician, they never get to dance.”
You wanted to spend Christmas Eve dancing (Vesper Service). Instead, you had to be up on the bandstand sawing away on your violin (dealing poker), while strangers danced.
pl may have seemed a bit harsh to you, but when it boils down to you lamenting missing out on some entertainment, because others were demanding entertainment from you, it strikes me that he’s nailed it.
Perhaps it’s breaking the rules of Pit-decorum, but I don’t want to sign off without at least offering something constructive for next Christmas, or even for Easter: Volunteer early to participate in whichever service you’d like to attend, then see if Father Francis (or whatever his name is) can see his way clear to intercede with the scheduling coordinator at the casino, so he doesn’t have to be deprived of the services of an invaluable individual as yourself.
I would. I wouldn’t watch the Super Bowl even if “The Sound of Music” was on every other channel.
Stores are closed all the time. I have a big problem with people who would require them to be closed so they can do something religious. One thing grownups learn is that the world does not bend to one’s will.
Every day you spend with your family should be special. Holidays are extra days when I am not at work. That’s it.
Because they would require the entire world to change to make it possible for them not to miss it. They are engaging in a passive-aggressive attempt to control others’ behavior. Look at how many times Guinastasia and Thea have told complete strangers what they should be doing on Dec. 25. Arabs should be fasting. People should be with their families.
If people choose not to get out of that rut, it is their choice. I could’ve worked in retail forever, or low-paying radio jobs, but I chose to complete college and not do that. I don’t have any compassion for people who choose not to better themselves. I have compassion for people who are victims of circumstance. (Which Guinastasia arguably is, but Thea clearly is not.)
How is requiring your employees to work on days when the business is open “screwing them over”? I mean, honestly.
Um, that’s a sentence fragment, but you’ll notice then when I do dine out on or near the holidays, as I mentioned, I tip over a hundred fucking percent. The rest of the year, I tip between 20-25%. So if you want to continue with stupid, groundless accusations, be my guest.
I wasn’t “fortunate.” “Fortunate” implies that fate smiled upon you and rescued you. Fuck that weak-ass crap. I worked my ass off to finish college, my wife supporting both of us while I did, incurring a student loan debt load that would curl your hair. Fortune had absolutely nothing to do with it. It was good old-fashioned hard work. So do I have sympathy for people who aren’t willing to engage in the same work? Hell, no.
I sincerely hope that when Guinastasia finishes, she is able to find a better job, if for no other reason than it might be enlightening for her to see things from the perspective of the owner or decision-maker. I’ve been in her shoes; she hasn’t been in the owner’s. It’s really easy to say, “Well, if I owned the business, I’d do this, that and the other.” It’s different to actually need to make those decisions.
Thea: If you feel you are obligated to attend church, that is a burden you placed on yourself. God commands two things–love Him with all your heart and all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. He does not command church attendance; that is something men made up. So yes, I feel that people getting together in one place at one time to worship God is functionally indistinguishable from people getting together in one place at one time to play “Magic: The Gathering” or compare stamp collections, and I see no reason why I should regard them differently. It is a gathering of people with a shared interest. No more, no less.
Thea, most of your statements are made in absolutes, which seems inconsistent with your own behavior. You speak of obligation to G-d, yet choose to work instead. That’s a value judgement that many people make differently. On one extreme are people who persue the “Almighty Dollar”, and on the other are those who devote their lives to G-d. You, like most of us, fall somewhere in the middle, and yet you keep making blanket statements such as:
This is very unfair to PLDennison and the others here. You work in a Casino in Las Vegas. The single focus of your industry is the “Almighty Dollar.” Calling it a “Service Industry” is misleading. Restuarants, themed attractions, retails outlets are service industries. Casinos do not market in any product other then money.
If you believe you live in a world where family and faith no longer matter, and if you place your faith and obligation to G-d above all else, then you have other options for your own survival than to work at a Casino. If you want to know what these are, I would suggest consulting the head of your local church.
If, like the rest of us, you fall somewhere in between these extremes, may I humbly suggest you not cast stones. Don’t lump people into large, faceless groups so you can make sweeping assumptions. Leave us all to make our own decisions about our own destinies in our own ways.
Thank you,
inkblot
PL-you may claim to be compassionate, but I don’t see it.
Bitter much?
Jesus, who pissed your cheerios?
Guinastasia, I can honestly say, without hesitation, that that is the single funniest, most ironic thing I’ve heard all week–you, Ms. Fuck-You-Customers-Suck-I’m-Trapped-In-A-Job-I-Don’t-Want, calling me bitter! Ha!
BTW, Matthew 7:1-5.
I mean, you think it’s okay for me to work retail, since I’m going to better myself. But for Thea, since she’s not going to college, since she decided to stay where she is-why does that make her a lesser deserving individual, or anyone else who chooses to stay in retail, or doesn’t go to college?
Less deserving of what? Compassion? Her decision is her decision–it isn’t up to me to feel compassion or not. In fact, I think it would be more insulting to her to tell her I feel badly that she made the decision she did.
If she’s where she wants to be, and she says she is so I have no reason to doubt her, compassion isn’t even on the radar. You, I hope you graduate and get a decent job. I struggled for a year at minumum wage after I graduated until I found the job I wanted. When I was first married in 1991, I made $8,100. Last year I made many multiples of that.
I have compassion, as I said, for victims of circumstance. People who through no fault of their own are stuck in jobs or situations they are powerless to escape. Like my sister’s children. (But not my sister.)
People who want more, and could get more, but aren’t willing to work for it? Fuck 'em.
(not going to go back to quote posts)
My church doesn’t have a choir, or even an organ. The (recently retired) bishop of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys, which includes most of the Western third of the United States, banned choirs and organs, because he felt, and I agree, that if you have such musical niceties, the congregation will just sit back and listen, rather than participate in the liturgy (which is chanted, or, if you will, sung from beginning to end, with the exception of the communion prayer.)
So much for going to church to be entertained.
I go to participate in worship.
I completely understand where you’re coming from, Phil, and I don’t disagree with the general premise.
And it occurs to me that just because it’s both a religious holiday and a popular secular holiday does not make it mandatory for any business to close. In particular, a modicum of convenience stores remaining open for the benefit of those who have it off and need to buy something is not unreasonable.
But it would strike me as well within the bounds of intelligent management to allow those who have religious beliefs to have time off to attend worship services on what is for them a religious holiday. Regardless of whether you happen to share their beliefs. And assuming that you can schedule around their wishes, as one generally can. (It would be obvious from interaction over the previous few months that the person is moved by sincere belief rather than opportunism, claiming he/she is a devout Whatevertarian in order to get Christmas Eve off.)
I stopped at the convenience store at which I usually shop en route to and from work about 5:00 on the 24th. The clerks on duty noted that they’d be open straight through, although all the neighboring businesses (they’re at the entrance to a shopping center) were closing at 6:00). And what management there did was, I think, extremely nice: “We’re staying open, and we’ll schedule you to work if necessary. But we’re hoping to staff with people who want to work. Your choice is, during the 6:00 PM 12/24 to 6:00 AM 12/26 period, take your shift off at half pay [since they don’t do paid holidays, this is in the nature of a bonus], or work your regular shift at double time.” And they staffed with people who chose the double time, giving those who wanted it off the chance to take it off.
Not too mention that the Eastern Orthodox Church forbids any instrument other than the human voice. (But their Xmas isn’t until, um, January 7th-is that it?)
No, I like the services as they are very awe inspiring and very touching. But there is something in it for me, that makes me feel very warm and good.
And I don’t mean feel sorry for anyone-I mean, why can’t you be understanding of people being screwed by their employers?