What in Christ's Name are you doing here?

The BBQ Pit
141

And that compares to “I want to go to church” because . . . ?

And while I may not particularly value Xmas or any other holiday for its worth as a holiday, I do value my time off. My job is a very high-stress one (not as much as emergency services or other such jobs, but it is stressful). Those four “vacation blackout” periods I mentioned are incredibly difficult; longer hours, frustrated clients, increased volume, all kinds of factors. And each lasts for 5 weeks. That’s 20 weeks per year where I can’t take any time off. So, barring co-workers with medical needs or real necessities for that time, during the other 32 weeks of the year, I take it when I can get it. In my office now, since I moved from Cleveland to Virginia, it’s fairly academic–there are only 3 of us in the office as opposed to 14.

Would I consider foregoing time off if someone else wanted the time? Sure. I do it all the time. In addition to regular holidays, our company offers “quasi-holidays” that it’s up to each office to devide among employees based on seniority. And I told my boss as we were discussing next year’s, “I don’t celebrate Easter or Christmas, so I’ll let you and Shane decide if you want Good Friday and Christmas Eve.” But if I’m stressed, and I feel I need the time off and I have seniority, someone is going to have to give me a much better reason than “I want to go to church.”

142

Nah, Phil, I’m not saying that one person’s religious needs trump anything as regards another.

First, grant me that employee morale and such are valid concerns of an employer. Every one of his employees is a person, with personal needs important to them. How to work it so that he gets the maximum? Compassion is the key. The need of a devout individual to honor the demands of his religion is a valid personal need, regardless of what you may think of his religion. If he is a worthwhile employee, you will enable him to meet his personal need if it can be done without undue favoritism or schedule abuse. And I would draw no difference here between letting Fred attend his Easter service and giving Adelaide time off to go visit her critically ill father, allowing Todd time to fix the mess he has made of his engagement, and whatever else comes down the pike. If you and Jodi were my two employees, I’d definitely give her preference on the Christian holidays, because they matter to her, and then insist that she work overtime because, since you put in all that extra time on the Donner deal and Peta’s screaming that you’re never home, you deserve some time off to spend with her. Seem reasonable to you put in that way?

143

From Dinsdale’s “Interviewing for a Promotion” thread:

Bitching about one’s employers and work schedule is a tradition more ancient than Christmas; we all do it sometimes, even if we accept that our employers are not obligated to accommodate us.

144

So, am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that vast numbers of Americans don’t want to be with their families on Christmas, preferring to go shopping or gambling, that rapidly increasing numbers of employers are not willing to either close or run with a reduced staff to allow the employees who want to be with their families, or God forbid, attend religious services, to do so, and that there are significant numbers of people who regard religious observances as a merely recreational activity?

And yes, I did work Christmas Day, or rather Christmas Night. I work swing shift.

145

Oh, and Dinsdale, for me “getting another job” would involve getting out of the casino industry altoghther, then having to work two jobs in order to earn enough money to survive, probably in a fast food joint or convenience store, and still have to work holidays. Very, very few businesses here in Vegas close on Christmas. And I don’t have the financial means to leave town right now, since my savings was eaten up by a recent six weeks of unemployment. (No fault of my own, btw. I was fired from a job where I was dealing reasonably well and steadily and noticebly improving, cooperating with my coworkers, following the directives of my supervisors, and being polite and friendly with the customers in a place where many of my coworkers were doing none of the above. I was also the only female craps dealer in the joint…)

Of course, it’s getting harder and harder to find a job that will allow workers to have Christmas and Thanksgiving off all over the country.

And really, would it kill the casinos to only have two craps tables open instead of four, have fewer blackjack games open, fewer cocktail waitresses, fewer porters, on Christmas? I don’t expect them to close down, but sheesh, at least make some adjustments so that the workers can actually have a holiday.

146

Maybe some of them don’t have families, and rather than joining the ranks of holiday-induced depressives and suicides, they prefer to be out in public doing something fun. Did you quiz them all individually?

And, yes, some people don’t want to be with their families. Some people might come from families that were abusive, or have other dysfunctions, and prefer not to spend time with them. Until this summer, I hadn’t spoken to my mother for three solid years, including holidays. Sometimes that’s just the way it is. Everybody’s got a different story, Thea.

If they’re not Christian, what would you prefer they prefer; and furthermore, why? I mean, I would prefer people were not religious, but I doubt you care.

In case you missed the news, Montgomery Wards announced yesterday that they are closing all of their stores and going out of business. Part of the reason was disappointing Christmas sales, probably not just this year. It’s hard enough, for brick-and-mortar stores, to compete in the retail world today, so I would imagine many of them want to stay open every possible minute for which it’s more profitable to be open than closed. I’d rather see a few people have to work on the holidays than see massive amounts of people lose their jobs.

Please explain to me why, given the fact that I do not believe in god, I would regard a church service as functionally different from a meeting of the Browns Boosters, or a symphony concert, or any number of social activities. For me to ascribe more importance to it, I would have to believe that believing in god is prima facie more important than those other things. I mean, I’m a member of the Northern Virginia Astronomy Club, and that’s pretty important to me, but I wouldn’t expect my employer to give me time off for a meeting, although I would appreciate it. If that depresses you, well, . . . TWIAVBP, and there is no reason for nonreligious people or even people of other religions to ascribe as much importance to your church services as you do.

147

Only tell me if I get it wrong.

Uhhh, The World Is A Very Bad Place?

148

BUT, can they not respect that Thea does put utmost importance on her religion and her faith?
And have the decency not to put her down for it?

149

The World Is A Very Big Place. :slight_smile:

150

pldennison wrote:

Funny, I remember what you wrote earlier in this thread, when you passed judgment on people with dead-end jobs:

I asked you a simular thing - how do you know which dead-end drone is there because they “choose” to be, or because they are a victim of circumstance? Do you quiz them individually?

Yeah, and everyone with a shitty job situation has a different story too, Phil. But you had no trouble passing judgement on them. Hey - I could decide that these people who choose not to be with their family do so because they are too selfish, or won’t get along, or whatever. But I have no desire to do that.

You have taken every opportunity to make that abundantly clear to us. I can’t speak for Thea, but for myself, I don’t care.

151

Um, dinsdale, I’ve already covered the issue of people who don’t have families. Please read before you post. I stated that I’m more than happy for them to come hang out with me and unload some excess cash. Ditto for people who come from religions/cultures that don’t have major holidays/religious observances around this time of year. But I have a hard time believing that there are enough people who fall into the above categories to create traffic jams on the sidewalks on the Las Vegas Strip.

And I have worked every Christmas for the last three years, without complaint. Of course, the previous two years, I worked days, so I was able to go to Christmas Eve vespers and be with my adopted “family”. Christmas morning liturgy, there weren’t a lot of people at my church, they had come the night before. But that’s just a hazard of being new at a job, and not being in a position to be able to ask for a certain day off. I had to suck it up. At least I met my religious obligation.

And the point has been repeatedly made that even many non-Christians in the US celebrate Christmas as a purely cultural holiday, a special time to spend with family, even without the religious observances.

I’m seeing an attitude voiced primarily by pldennison and dinsdale that says, “Our society by and large doesn’t have values anymore beyond materialism and commercialism, and screw you if you do place value on things like family, faith and tradition.”

That frightens me.

152

Sorry, that last post should have been addressed to pldennison, 'course the two are posting rants that are so similar in content, it’s getting hard to tell them apart…

153

No, I treat all of them as if the case were the latter, rather than the former, which is why I do not ask them their life circumstances before leaving the big honkin’ tips around the holidays. If I were to know for a fact that they were a member of the former category, I’d be less inclined to do so.

And Thea, what frightens me are sanctimonius moralizers who assume that because everybody does not share their values or, for Pete’s sake, celebrate Christmas even on a secular level, that all of America is going to hell in a handbasket. How you even got from what I’ve said to “I don’t have any values except for materialism” is such an egregious mischaracterization that I have to either question your English skills, or wonder whether you’re more interested in polemics than an exchange of ideas. If that were true, I wouldn’t want any time off to spend with my wife, now would I?

154

Right. I chose not to better myself.

That’s why I’m working at a job where I stand to make forty thousand dollars this year, with the potential to move on to one where I could make fifty to sixty once I get a couple more years experience under my belt. :rolleyes:

Phil, the fact that increasing numbers of people don’t give a damn about their families, or about God, or about anything other than money, materialism, and how best to be entertained may be ok with you, but I see a society falling apart at the seams. But that’s probably ok with you, too.

155

Thea, caring about one’s family has nothing to do with “caring about God.”

156

porcupine-

This is true. However, family is still on the list of things that more and more people don’t seem to care about.

157

Thea,
I find it odd that in one sentence you’re proclaiming how you’re bettering yourself by making x amount of money and in the next you’re railing against materialism. Notice that you chose money as the sole criteria for self-improvement, not spending time with family, religion, etc.
Also, once again I want examples of how society is going down the tubes due to people not believing in God, and cites on just how many people don’t care about their families anymore. Just because people were gambling on Christmas Eve you’re going to make the leap to the end of civilization? A little less drama, a little more facts. Sorry for the terseness of this response, I’m at work and am due to get off break about, oh, 15 minutes ago.

158

Woodstock, you shouldn’t post when you don’t have time to read. I’ve already stated that I would have stayed at a lower paying job if the one I’m at now had not offered me a schedule that allowed me to meet my religious obligations.

Did I mention that the job also demands a lot of skill, and holiday blues aside, is very enjoyable, being as how most of the people who come to the table are there to have a good time?

That the income level allows me to give about $200/mo to my church, plus miscellaneous charitable donations?

No, income is not my sole criteria for self-improvement, but it sure does help that I only need to work one job to support myself, so that I have time available to do things like volunteer to clean the church on my days off (we are not a wealthy congregation, and the fact that we don’t have to pay for this service means that the money can be put to other, more charitable uses).

159

Thea Logica, why stay at a job that’s bound to keep interfering with religious obligations you say are very important to you? There are other ways to make $40-$60K a year–many of them involving Christmas off. I’m not being nitpicky, I genuinely don’t understand how in one breath you’re talking about bettering yourself by staying at a job that requires you to work on religious holidays (but pays well) and in the next you’re decrying a trend of people caring more about money than about God.

160

Excuse me, but wasn’t the whole point of this thread the fact that your job was scheduling you in a way that interfered with your religious obligations? If you specifically chose this job because it “allowed you to meet your religious obligations”, why the hell are you complaining about it? This means you presumably knew that it was open over the Christmas holiday and yet still chose it over a job that would have allowed you to take the day off. I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point at all. Oh, right, I forgot, you’re not complaining about having to work the holiday, you’re complaining about all the heathens who aren’t observing your holiday, who therefore don’t give a shit about the family unit, or religion, or the impending doom and destruction their actions are helping to bring about. My bad. Yes, I really must take the time to read before posting.