Please explain how our sins are traveling backwards through time. That beats the heck of out the evolution debate.
Should we teach physics in school? Shouldn’t we provide equal time to Christian physics? Einstein – obviously a tool of Satan if you ask me. If time travel isn’t possible, I’d have to actually get off the couch and save myself. Good thing my salvation is coming through that wormhole floating over golgatha – someone pass the chips.
Gaudere
As you know, I wasn’t jumping down your throat, nor have I any “theory” about Christianity. It is what it is, singularly defined by only One. The notion that there are theories of Christianity makes it sound like Christianity is some kind of religion or something.
At any rate, now we have a question standing (presumably a sincere one) about how sins travel through time, as though the Spirit were made of atoms. By the time we find an applicable Christian theory (Aquinas, perhaps?) to answer this question, Hell will have frozen over, and you will have agreed with something I’ve said.
You’re so cute, Libby. 
Yes, I am aware of your conception of Christianity. Yes, I am aware that to you, it is the only real one, and that you would argue that since it is True, it is true for all people–just as many other Christians argue regarding their beliefs. I am also aware that there are other people with lots and lots of different opinions on this, and if I want to have an intelligible conversation with them, I had better be capable of understanding and accepting their viewpoint too.
/Warning: VERY long post/
I’m going to try to offer a summary, and maybe a new perspective here. I would say “more fuel for the fire”, but as a Wiccan in a religious discussion I tend to avoid that expression:D.
Confirmation for avalongod: “An it harm none, do as thou wilt” is the Wiccan Rede, our primary rule of behavior. It manages to be both liberal and restrictive–covering far more forms of “harm” than the Decalog, for example, but allowing for individual judgment and societal changes.
Satanism: In keeping up-to-date on religious (in)tolerance, I come across information on lots of religions. Satanists are discussed all out of proportion to their actual numbers. They tend to fall into categories roughly summed up as:
a)Religious Satanists–Lavey’s church is a good example.
Most are not theists; that is, they don’t believe in Satan as an deity, but as a representation of primal
urges, a symbol based on pre-Christian fertility gods.
Canonically, they are hedonistic, but take responsibility for their own actions rather than relying on a “Redeemer”. They are forbidden to harm the innocent.
b)Satanic dabblers–usually a small group of teenagers being rebellious. Dabblers nominally subscribe to a theistic view of Satan as a living, all-evil quasi-deity. Group activities may include cobbled-together rituals; some groups may engage in drug use and vandalism–some may go as far as sacrificing a small animal, but this seems to be fairly rare. Other groups just like to hang out together, being “wicked”.
c)“Devil-made-me-do-it” Satanists–generally criminals (some of them legitimately insane) invoking a strange dual defense of religion and insanity in their trials. IMHO, this doesn’t qualify for inclusion in a discussion of religion.
Christians are harder to pin down than any other religion; there are so many denominations disagreeing with each other about effectively every aspect of the faith that it is almost impossible to define them without badly offending many of them. Here are some definitions, from most- to least- inclusive:
a)A person who regards Jesus as a model of ethical behavior (note that even some Atheists could fall under this definition).
b)Qualities listed under a) plus belief in a theistic god and the historicity of Jesus. These Christians do not necessarily believe that Jesus was divine.
c)Qualities listed under b) plus acceptance of certain Trinitarian beliefs–Resurrection, Jesus as Incarnation of God, Second Coming, and related minor doctrines. This would include devout Catholics, for instance.
d)Qualities listed under c) plus the belief that salvation can only be attained through faith in Jesus. This rules out Catholic practices and doctrines like confession and Purgatory.
Note that members of each group may well consider members of all of the more inclusive groups heretics. In my youth, I found myself (even then openly a Pagan) defending Catholic friends against accusations of Satanism by some of the Southern Baptist majority in my home town. Other, more tolerant, Baptists sometimes came to me to ask perfectly fair questions about other faiths. So even within a group, opinions vary widely.
To end the ramble–and to prove that it does relate to the original question–here are some conclusions:
Being Anti-Christian does not make you a Satanist, Pagan, Atheist, or whatever.
Being a Satanist, Pagan, Atheist, or whatever does not make you Anti-Christian.
Almost any religious or humanist philosophy can provide some kind of starting point for organizing your life. If you feel directionless–and actually want a direction–study some of them, pick one you feel comfortable with, and try it out. If you don’t like it, leave it.
If you are lonely (and not just injecting pathos for effect, something I am known to do), then go out and find some people who like to do the same sort of things you do and make some friends! Joining clubs can be a good starting point, if there are any that match your interests–and I’ll put on the asbestos longjohns to include religious groups under the “club” heading.
This is good, Balance. I like the breakdown.
I am directionless. I feel like Dante in the opening Canto of the Inferno:
“When I had traveled but half our lives’ way,
I found myself within a darkened wood,
for I had lost the path that does not stray”
But I think I’ve been every religion for at least 5 minutes, and a “jesus freak” for a good 6 months. Maybe someday I’ll go back, but I suspect a death bed confession is going to be the best I can do. Soon I’ll be hitched, tied down, stuck in my careerist ways, and eventually dead. I never thought there was an afterlife, but why can’t I seem to follow the narrow way and enjoy the promises of j.c. in the here and now, and maybe make the world a better place? I’m weak. I’m doomed. And maybe jealous, really, of the people to whom it all seems so simple. But I’m in hell now and can’t seem to find my way back out – I don’t know if I want to. But when you decide not to choose…
Where’s Virgil when you need him?
At the risk of sounding sophistic, when you decide not to choose, you’ve still made a choice. Maybe the choice is just to forge your own path; it’s tough, but it doesn’t have to make you unhappy. Lots of Wiccans (maybe most) do it–herding cats is simple compared to organizing us. You don’t have to follow a narrow way or specific creed to make the world a better place. You could do so by offering someone a friendly smile, helping a stranger out of a jam, or just trying to contribute to knowledge and understanding here on the boards. Even though I have a religion, I’m not sure there’s an afterlife. I think that much certainty in the absence of evidence indicates either brainwashing or arrogance. That just gives me all the more reason to make the most out of this life.
Another rule of thumb Wiccans use is the Principle of Threefold Return: Any change you make in someone’s life–good or bad–comes back to you threefold. You don’t even have to interpret it mystically; it’s just social common sense. If you treat others badly, they won’t like you, help you, or even associate with you. If you treat others well, they tend to reciprocate. When in doubt, try to spread a little happiness around–this world needs all it can get.
jmullaney,
My heart just breaks for you. I can literally feel the compassion of God welling up inside me for you. He so much wants you to know you are loved and accepted by Him.
You said “I am directionless”. Jesus can cure this if you’ll give Him the chance. He can give you more purpose in your life than you could ever dream or hope for.
You said “Maybe someday I’ll go back, but I suspect a death bed confession is going to be the best I can do.” I encourage you to not wait. You might find that you don’t have the chance to make a deathbed confession.
Here’s the main quote I wish to respond to:
“why can’t I seem to follow the narrow way and enjoy the promises of j.c. in the here and now, and maybe make the world a better place? I’m weak. I’m doomed. And maybe jealous, really, of the people to whom it all seems so simple. But I’m in hell now and can’t seem to find my way back out – I don’t know if I want to.”
jmullaney, believe it or not, you have, in essence, met the first qualification of coming to Christ. You have basically acknowledged that you are lost and cannot save yourself. You have to realize this about yourself before you realize your need to be saved from yourself.
There is a way out jmullaney. There is a way out TODAY. You don’t have to live one more minute in misery and despair. You can have a life of purpose and joy and peace.
I’m going to present the remaning aspects of the gospel in capsule form. If you have any questions / comments, please post them.
Let me tell you how God sees you jmullaney. God is, as you might correctly surmise, and all-loving God. He loves you, and doesn’t want to punish you for your sins. He wants to take you in His arms and hold you and love you and be your best friend for all eternity.
Sadly, your sins are blocking His way. God is not only all-loving, but He’s a totally just judge as well. He sees your sin and pronounces you guilty … and He HAS to punish you for your sin.
How can God solve this dilemma? God loves you and doesnt want to punish you, but He’s just so He has to.
There is only one solution. God sent His own Son, Jesus, to take the punishment FOR you. jmullaney, Jesus died so that, if you accept Him, you can have that love relationship with God that He so deserately wants with you.
Essentially, God is looking at you jmullaney and offering you a free gift - salvation from your sins and from the punishment for your sins. He asks you to give Him control of your life, and in exchange He promises you a life full of comfort, peace, and joy - and eventually, eternity in heaven.
So the ball is in your court my friend. God wants you. He is offering salvation to you. All you have to do, if you want it, is pray to God and cover the following points:
If you do this, the Bible says your name is written into the Book of Life, and you join the world’s largest family. I pray that you will seriously consider coming to Christ, jmullaney. Don’t wait until you are on your deathbed … it might be too late then.
As I said, let me know if you have questions.
I went ahead and posted this after reading the OP but before checking out any of the responses. It’s late and I’m tired (the all-purpose disclaimer :D) and the following will probably be embarassingly disjointed. I’ll read the other responses later.
What is a Christian? As far as you or I are concerned, anyone who says they are. I’m not a mind reader. If someone says they’re a goat, I can safely guess they’re lying (and may suspect they’re insane). If someone says they’re a Christian, a Moslem, or a Pantheist, I’m pretty much forced to take them at their word. It’s not like only bona-fide members of the club get issued some I.D. or something.
People identify themselves with a group/cause for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it’s because they truly believe. Sometimes it’s because they like the lifestyle or because they sense an opportunity to accumulate wealth, power, and influence. Sometimes it’s just so they can piss someone else off.
Why are Christians so annoying sometimes? Well, I guess some folks don’t buy that any written work could possibly have survived intact. Others object to the perception that we Christians are smug, holier-than-thou knowitall SOBs. I think the main objection is that we too often try to tell you all about how wonderful salvation is without expressing any interest in you whatsoever, except as a potential convert. There is no excuse for that. I apologise. I hope never do that to you – if I do, call me on it.
Is someone a real Christian just because they say they are? Well, according to the Bible, you judge a tree by its fruit (and thus, a Christian by what happens in his life and his dealings with you and others). A cactus produces spines, even if it’s convinced it’s an apple tree and wants you to believe its spines are really apples (“Trust me! I have your best interests at heart! You know I wouldn’t intentionally hurt you! It must be something wrong with you”). Likewise, a Christian can (usually) be recognized by their actions, words, and deeds. This isn’t a foolproof method. There have been times in my life when I’ve been a real *sshole, and at times, I’ve been just plain stupid. I’m certain that if anyone knew I was a Christian at that time, they sure wouldn’t think I was a good advertisement for it.
If someone claims to be a Christian and does something evil, there are several possibilities. One is, that he’s chosen to call himself a Christian because he thinks that’s a good way to win power over you. Possibly, he might think that this evil thing he does is necessary to win you over to Christ. He could be deluded.
Someone who is a hypocrite might be aware that he’s being hypocritical and trying to break whatever habit he’s made of it. He could be in denial, or possibly he hangs out with a crowd that reinforces the illusion that what he’s doing isn’t really wrong, so long as (insert rationalization here).
The real test of anyone’s “religion” is, how does it affect the way they deal with other people, and how does it affect the way they allow others to deal with them? G-d didn’t call me to badger you into heaven, but he didn’t call me to be your doormat either.
Of course, the moment you detect me unfairly casting doubt on your sanity, ancestry, or using spurious logic, feel free to raise the bullsh-t flag. When I’m wrong, I’d rather suffer the embarassment of being caught acting like a fool than to continue being one. Of course, I hope you anticipate the same courtesy from me :D.
~~Baloo
P.S.: I just realized the title of this thread is: “What is a “Chistian” anyway?” I don’t know. What is a Chistian? (Hey! Stop hitting!)
Listen to FriendofGod, jmullaney. He’s got a fairly specific list of who can and cannot be Christian. :rolleyes:
(If you want the link I’ll give it to you.)
Esprix
Thanks Baloo. I think you hit the nail on the head. Oops, maybe I shouldn’t mention nails in a Christian thread…
Thanks FriendOfGod. You just keep trying the hard sell approach on me. At some point, I’m going to be able to read your entire post without becoming all gloopy-like.
Thanks Esprix. Although FriendOfGod has no doubt repented since he/she came up with this list, I’m sure I’d find it of interest.
A Christian is a person who has accepted the fact that they are a sinner and that they must die for their sins. But that the son of God, Jesus came to Earth as a man lived a sinless life and was killed for the sins of everyone else. The person then repents of his sins, which not only means to say your sorry, but to walk away from the lifestly of sin. After this is done Christians pray to Jesus and read the word of God consistently to maintain there relationship with God. There are many people who call themselves Christians, but contradict themselves by living any way that they choose. But true christians try to live their lives as the Bible teaches. This is what a Christian is. If anyone has any questions E-mail me and I will try to answer them for you. God bless you.
Hey, I’m just this guy, you know?
Is it my imagination, or do we seem to have a recent influx of new Christian members of the board? Did somebody leak these Christian discussions to the LBMB?
Esprix
The Bible says in Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born, I set you apart…”
These are the words of God to Jeremiah, but they are true of all of us. Our sins don’t travel in time, God surpasses time. Imagine time as an aquarium and you’re able to look within it. That’s God’s view of the universe, from the moment of creation throughout eternity. That’s why the Bible says that for God “a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.” God is not limited by time.
As for those who say they can be saved and “keep on sinning.” I agree with the post that if you pray to accept Christ and aren’t sincere, you aren’t saved. It’s not a magic spell as one post said, so it doesn’t matter the words you use. The point is your recognition that something is lacking in your life that only God is able to fill and that you want Him to fill that space in your heart. Does that mean that Christians don’t sin? I think we’ve heard pretty clearly that they do. I know I do. Mostly what happens is I don’t pray and ask God about something that seems pretty obvious, so I do it my way. It doesn’t go well and God convicts me that I really needed His guidance and next time, I try to seek Him before doing this thing. If I ignore the conviction (that’s Christian-speak for feeling guilty about doing something you know God doesn’t want you to do); then I end up getting tempted by greater sins. Before long I’m doing or saying things that I never imagined I would. That’s why it’s SO important for a Christian to respond to that conviction by confessing to GOD that they recognize it as sin, and then turning away from it. There is no sin that a Christian “can’t” commit if they allow themselves to get further and further away from the LORD. jmullaney, you said you were a Jesus freak for “six months”; do you believe you made a sincere commitment to HIM? Is it possible that you’ve allowed yourself to ignore God’s conviction (that’s called hardening your heart) to the point that you no longer recognize it?
There was something else in one of your posts that I wanted to address, but I’ll have to find it and post a separate reply.
What category would the group that sacrifices newborn babies, even keeping women in the group pregnant without letting ‘outsiders’ know so that no questions will be asked when the babies are born and then sacrificed, fall into? This is what people who have LEFT the Satanic church claim to have participated in.
I’m sorry, I re-read that and it sounds sarcastic, I don’t mean it that way, I mean it as a genuine question since none of your categories include human sacrifice.
Personally, I can imagine no reason why someone would make up having done something so hideous, but then I’m one of those radical fundamentalists that believes innocent humans of any age have a right to life. (“Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” rings a bell…)
Nutcases, psychotics, and largely nonexistent. If you can provide a citation for me, I’d be happy to peruse it, but there is no organization of babykillers, no evil conspiracy of Luciferians bathing in blood. The stories upon which you base the above are by and large apocryphal, urban legend, and outright lies.
Tales of baby-killing satanic cults are about as reliable as recovered memories.
People claim a lot of things. Even false things. But I assure you, the (semi-)organized Church of Satan (as well as its offshoot, the Temple of Set) in no way condones, encourages, or allows human sacrifice.
Alarmist and unverified rhetoric benefits no one.
-andros-
First, a caveat: This is going to sound like a defense of Satanism. I prefer to think of it as a defense of truth; I personally don’t appove of or agree with the philosophy and general attitude of even the Religious Satanists. Likewise they tend to regard Wiccans with contempt. Nevertheless, under the principles of freedom so essential to the U.S., they have a right to believe what they choose. I cannot countenance attacks on them by purveyors of false accusations and hate literature who wish to deny them that right.
I hate to sound cynical (I’ve been nice so far, and I’d hate to ruin it), but the reasons people would make up such things are pretty cynical in themselves.
Reasons:
1)To make a buck. The Satanic Panic was triggered largely by the “Satanic Survivor” book “Michelle Remembers”. This book was a work of fiction, but it quickly began to regarded as fact by enough people that other writers started to cash in on it. There was a market; people (presumably with really strong stomachs) supplied it. This is an oversimplification, but there was an awful lot of money made in the Satanic Panic industry with fake survivor books.
2)To promote an agenda. You seem nice enough–I certainly have no room to object to a little sarcasm–but there are plenty of other Christians, mostly conservatives, who are willing to fudge or even outright make up evidence to support their religious agenda. I don’t mean this as a slam on anybody’s faith; Wiccans have their liars and fanatics, too. There are just more Christians around, and they’re more open about their religion (probably has something to do with not getting lynched), so naturally you see more of the unethical type. Besides, they’re louder than the rest of you combined.
3)Others aren’t making it up. That doesn’t mean it’s real, though. Psychological studies have shown that recovered memory therapy is extremely prone to implanting false, but believable memories. This therapy generated an enormous number of reports of Satanic abuse and murder. None were confirmed by any trace of physical evidence; many were directly ontradicted by available evidence. Effectively all major psychology/psychiatry professional organizations have since rejected the therapy as useless and dangerous–but that still leaves a horrifying number of people out there suffering trauma and estrangement from their families over memories of things that never happened.
What it all boils down to is a hoax–I know all the claims: The conspiracy is too big, too efficient in hiding its crimes; law enforcement is inept, duped, or involved. These are standard conspiracist-theory-nut claims. The bigger the conspiracy, the better the chance that it will break down somewhere. It’s hard for one person to keep a secret, and it gets harder by geometric progression (possibly even exponential). I cannot accept the idea that a multigenerational, evil conspiracy can commit thousands of murders on a regular basis and hide all of the evidence. Conspiracists are as vulnerable to Murphy’s Law as any of us: They WOULD have screwed up. Here’s a link to an FBI report <pauses to grab fire extinguisher for FBI flames> that essentially says that they can’t find any evidence: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_rep03.htm#fbi
I know how unpopular the FBI is with conspiracy theorists, but these people really are good at their jobs (even if they are much too nosy about us honest types). They would have found something if there were anything to find.
In summary: The idea that Satanist grottoes ritually murder people is religious propaganda inspired by the Witch hunts of old. Many claims are drawn directly or indirectly from books written during that period. The world is a dangerous enough place without inventing murderous religious conspiracies; the problem with paranoia is that it makes you jump at the wrong shadows sometimes. If you have to worry, worry about something real: terrorists, plane crashes, road rage…
Blessed Be,
Balance
</long hijack>
Yes, that’s what I said. 
Thanks, Balance, and welcome. Very tactful and well-spoken. (and a gamer to boot!)
Heresy. Of course God is limited by time. That quote doesn’t mean God traveled back in time, only that God had Jerimiah in mind to be a prophet before he was concieved.
If God were not to be limited by time, it throws a real monkey wrench in the works. It means God can’t lose – otherwise, he wouldn’t be trying if he wasn’t going to ultimately win. If god can’t lose, there is no reason for me to become a Christian outside of some selfish motive which I sorely lack. Or to put it on the battle for soul, microchristian perspective, Why would God waste his time trying to save me, or any of us, if he already knows who is hellbound and who isn’t? And if he is trying to save me, he must know he’s going to win, so why shouldn’t I just bide my time?
I mean, whose side are you on to be spouting such things? Have you thought this through at all??
FriendofGod,
I’m still waiting to hear the answer to this question… ;j
Zev Steinhardt