What is a "Chistian" anyway?

Great Debates
81

I specifically did NOT say God travelled back in time. I said God exists totally outside and unbounded by time. I DO believe He knows the end from the beginning. (Read Revelation…GOD WINS!) Before He created the earth, He knew that you, jmullaney, would be faced with the decision to worship Him, to accept His sacrifice on the cross and be saved, or to spend eternity in Hell. He KNOWS what you will choose. He KNOWS that some will choose to reject Him and He came and died for their sins anyway. His foreknowledge in no way relieves you of responsibility for the decision.

I’d like to also reply to the question about whether Jews have a relationship with God. The Bible clearly speaks of God’s special love for Israel, He loved them and blessed their nation by providing for the salvation of ALL NATIONS through them (Jesus Christ being a Jew). Those who reject God’s salvation and continue to endeavor to reach God through their own efforts have missed their Messiah. Like any other “religion” Judaism is man’s attempt to reach God, which will always fall short. Isaiah 53:5 “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This was written about 700 years before Christ was born. The passage goes on to describe Jesus trial, execution, burial, and resurrection.

82

jmullaney you said: “Thanks FriendOfGod. You just keep trying the hard sell approach on me. At some point, I’m going to be able to read your entire post without becoming all gloopy-like.”
I’m sorry if I’m dense, but I can’t quite tell if you are genuinely touched or if you’re being sarcastic. That’s the Internet for ya … hard to tell tones of voice and all. Either way, I hope you do take what I said to heart.

Esprix mentioned lots of new Christians on the board. Esprix, I mentioned in a post on the LBMB that I was posting over here and I just asked people to pray. A few responded and said they would come over as well (you don’t have to worry, it wasn’t very many :)).

Zev … regarding your wanting to hear my response to the Jewish question, I will defer to felicia’s excellent response which basicially said the same thing I would have said.

83

Zev, sounds to me like they mean the answer’s “No” but are trying really really hard not to come right out and say it.

(How do you get that rolly-eyes thing anyway?..I never needed it before…)

Kimstu

84

Of course, Jews don’t translate this verse this way. But, this being the Christian thread, and I’m the guest here, I’ll just take the answer I received. And Kimstu, you hit it right on the head. :slight_smile:

Zev Steinhardt

85

FriendofGod wrote:

Yeah, just what we need - another hit n’ run from LBMB. :rolleyes:

And what exactly did you ask them to pray for? The board? Cecil? Our eternal souls? Oy.

Esprix

86

So you are saying j.c. revealed this vision of the apocalype to John of Patmos to encourage people not to bother converting – it doesn’t matter, god will win anyway. Weird. I don’t know whether this whole book is symbolic of the struggle which goes on in the human soul.

Hey you OT guys – are there any prophesies in the OT that didn’t com true? Does God change his mind a few times in there somewhere?

Well, I don’t find your Big Brother image of God at all comforting, but you are entitled to believe this. I think the idea that God had each of us in mind from the beginning of time dangerously lacks humility. Vanity is the most deadly vice. It also ignores the tenents of free will which I thought was the whole point of being human. I wouldn’t encourage you to spread such things around.

FriendOfGod, I do think you are sincere. I just have Clockwork Orange flashbacks with the line you are taking – I’ve heard it all before. Maybe you are plowing the rock, as they say.

Esprix wrote: “Yeah, just what we need - another hit n’ run from LBMB.”

Who’s the LBMB? I’m picturing heavies giving some guy the third degree: “Yous better take jesus inna yer heart, or we’re gonna send lenny the fish here to pray for the healing of your broken legs” “But my legs aren’t broken?” “Wells, Lenny hates to waste his valueble pray time, he’ll just hafta see what he kin do about it.”

87

jmullaney, the ‘Lenny’ and his prayerWARRIORS thing cracked me up. Thank you, and all the rest of the folks here, too. for being willing to discuss this without getting really nasty. I appreciate the respect that is shown on this board.

I don’t really understand why you think GOD WINS means no need to convert. God wins, the question is ‘will you be on his side’ or on the opposing side? If I’m watching the Superbowl, which team I choose to root for will not influence the outcome of the game. It WILL determine whether I participate in the victory celebration or a pity-party. OK, I know that’s a simplistic example, but to me it’s a simple thing. I’m trying to see how you can fail to see the current events that relate to Revelation, but I can’t.

I can understand why you think God’s foreknowledge seems to lack humility, but I’m not claiming that He knew me because I’m so special…He knows the number of hairs on each person’s head that ever existed! It is in no means about me or you or how wonderful we are, it’s about how incredibly AWESOME and all-knowing God is.

88

I would genuinely like to hear how this passage is translated in the Talmud.

89

jmullaney wrote:

A cute analogy, but I only wish they were at least amusing. I’m referring to the Left Behind Message Board, basically the Jeezer equivalent of the SDMB (think Bizzarro SDMB and you’ll get an idea). Right before I started posting here there was a bit of a “holy war” when some Dopers went over there, stirred up trouble, then a bunch of Behinds came over here and retaliated, and it just got messy (so much so that the admins here had to actually make a truce with the admins there). So now there are still a few crossovers, but certainly no malice. But, like I said, there just seemed to be a few more Jeezers than usual, and FoG answered that question for us nicely.

Esprix

90

I like having a few fundamentalists around (it would be nice if they picked up a basic science book before they started spouting off about the 2nd law once in a while, though), and the ones we have have not been outrageously offensive by any means. Many different perspectives make for more interesting debates, IMHO. BTW, they call themselves “pounders”, not “behinds”, and I would not consider to posts made over there by dopers “stirring up trouble”; they were arguing evolution, true, but since when is honest disagreement and debate “stirring up trouble”? I don’t consider pounders who come over here to argue their beliefs to be “stirring up trouble”.

91

Well, I know there are people who purport to be xtians who are merely rooting for xtians. Your accidental analogy of fandom passivity proves my point. If you are a player, then your actions will determine the outcome of the game. Except in this warped picture you have that it doesn’t matter whether the “good” team even bothers trying – they “know” via some 2000 year old document written by a prisoner who might just have been in solitary a little too long. Then the Catholic Church, probably never realizing the harm it might cause for the next 1500+ years (or that fundies would evolve), decided it would make a nice ending to their new testement and slapped it on in there. “You will hear of wars, and rumors of wars…” C’mon, apocalypse is the biggest rumor around.

OK, can I play ahead a move? You’ll say we’ve already won through j.c.'s death and resurrection. I’ll point out the this was 2000 years ago and you are simply revamping the time travel argument. So I’ll agree to disagree with you, but don’t go teaching this to children or else I have a millstone you can borrow.

92

Gaudere wrote:

Ooops, sorry, I misspoke my history. I wasn’t sure what sparked the whole conflagration.

Esprix

93

The pounders perhaps felt a little attacked by the dopers; I see much of the same reaction in you when you become angry at the pounders who have come over here. I wonder if this is some sort of remnant of tribal psychology. “This person from Other Message Board! Bad! grunt Why they come on our territory? Go away, Other Message Board Person! This OUR Message Board! Other Message Board must be Bad. Other Message Board Persons must be attacking us!” :wink:

94

“All the other message boards can go to hell . . . except for message board 71!”

-Mel Brooks (almost)

95

Actually, Felicia, this chapter of Isaiah isn’t addressed in the Talmud at all. The Talmud rarely deals with purely theological issues. It deals mainly with the laws by which we live.

In any event, I do not wish to start dueling verses here. This thread (and probably this entire message board) is not the proper place for it. Suffice it to say that Jews do not interpret the suffering servant (notice I have it in lowercase letters) as being Jesus. The interpretation brought up by most of the commentators is that it is referring to the nation of Israel as a whole.

Why not Jesus? Here are just two reasons…

53:7 Jesus did open his mouth [to complain] at the crucifixtion.

53:10 Jesus did not have offspring and did not live a long life.

Zev Steinhardt

96

Kimstu said: "Zev, sounds to me like they mean the answer’s “No” but are trying really really hard not to come right out and say it. "
Well there’s such a thing as being gracious and not just bluntly saying something in a harsh way. I do not single out any race or religion. It’s not “us” vs “them”, its “ALL of us” vs “God”. We ALL need God, regardless or race or culture or background.

Esprix said: “Yeah, just what we need - another hit n’ run from LBMB. And what exactly did you ask them to pray for? The board? Cecil? Our eternal souls? Oy”
Like I said it was a very casual post, just mentioned I was posting over here. I told them some of what you guys were saying and asked them to pray that God would show Himself to you guys. A few reponded and said they would come over to help. Gaudere, I’m glad you welcome them … that’s to your (and this board’s) credit that you don’t censor Christians.
zev said, while quoting Is 53: "Why not Jesus? Here are just two reasons…

53:7 Jesus did open his mouth [to complain] at the crucifixtion.

53:10 Jesus did not have offspring and did not live a long life. "
Isaiah 53 is one of the most striking passages in the OT because it reads like a NT passage. It’s all about ‘belief’, a common NT theme.

Zev, even if we accept the 2 verses you have objections to, what are the odds of the other 10 verses being fulfilled in one man (13 verses if you count 52:13-15)?

But I don’t accept your objections. Verse 10 in particular. I am one of Jesus’ offspring. So is Felicia. The Bible regularly calls those who come to Jesus “children of God”.
And Jesus not only lived a long life, He still lives today. It can’t be talking about his earthly life because that was covered in verse 8: “He was cut off from the land of the living”.

Verse 7 - Jesus remained silent before the chief priests, Pilate, and Herod. Just because He didn’t other times doesn’t mean this verse doesn’t apply!

I doubt this will convince you, but it’s something to ponder. Can you imagine Jesus saying to Himself, “Hmm, if people are going to believe I’m the suffering servant, I’ve gotta really do this right. Lets see … I’ll let them beat me to a bloody pulp so they can say I was despised and rejected and had no beauty, I’ll have to make sure someone pierces me so they’ll say I was pierced for their transgressions, make sure a rich guy buries me, etc etc.”
Obviously this is ridiculous. It is astonishing that, as Felicia said, a passage written 700 years before Jesus was so perfectly fulfilled in Him, to the letter.
And this is just ONE passage! There are dozens more scattered throughout the Bible.

97

Why on earth do you think we would? I’d say Christians make up a good third to a half of this board, maybe more. Good Lord, if we kept Christians from posting “Christian” things I’d spend eight hours a day deleting posts. If you’re talking about witnessing, well, people don’t like being aggressively “witnessed to”, despite what the Chick Tracts say. However, we do allow it as long as it doesn’t cross the threshold into jerkdom.

I don’t precisely welcome fundamentalists; I welcome new perspectives. However, the value of having a new perspective is severly lessened when a person does not understood the difference between faith and logic, and trots out the same tired old creationist claptrap. At least come up with some new creationist claptrap! No one with an ability to use the brain God gave him should be tossing out claims that the 2nd law of thermodynamics disproves evolution. I mean, sheesh–this board’s purpose is to fight against ignorance, and the fundamentalists that are the most visible seem to revel in misunderstanding basic science and logical reasoning. There are fundmentalists on this board who understand how annoying witnessing can be, and also how to reason clearly; you would do well to emulate them.

98

You said “If you’re talking about witnessing, well, people don’t like being aggressively “witnessed to””
The truth is, I don’t prefer it either. In all my walks of life, I just live my life as it is, and it provokes questions naturally in my nonChristian friends. Those that are curious ask, and we begin dialoging (sp?) in a pleasant manner about God. I simply give them one or two truths at a time to think about, and give them time to take root in the persons heart. Again, this is all assuming a person OPEN to the truth.

I HAVE done the “cold call witnessing” approach before but I don’t find it to be too effective (although there are exceptions). People are much more open to the truth when they can see it being lived out in a person’s life.

The Internet and this bboard in particular is kind of a cross between cold call witnessing and the more casual, friendly approach. Normally, if I had met you Guadere at work or something, I would’ve taken months to get to know you before even bringing up anything about God or the Bible. It would’ve given me time to ask you questions and find out where you were coming from. Unfortunately, since we Christians are restricted to “Great Debates”, I can’t post a topic that says “So tell me about yourself”.

Even getting to know people on a bboard only works up to a point. It’s not exactly like “real life”, but kinda is. The Internet is weird that way. Anyway, the point of my long ramble is I somewhat agree, but at the same time the cold call approach DOES win some people. And again, this isn’t purely cold call because we engage in a long term debate.

You also said: “At least come up with some new creationist claptrap!”
Just because you’ve heard something before doesn’t make it untrue.

99

Um, Christians aren’t restricted to GD; if you want to post a thread titled “So tell me about yourself” in MPSIMS, go for it. But you can’t witness in any other forums, and “stealth witnessing” will get your rear jumped on; people can generally tell when you’re only being friendly so you can “save” them, and don’t like it one bit. If you think the GDer’s are bad, you’ve never seen a truly pissed-off group of MPSIMSer’s. :slight_smile: If you genuinely want to talk to people, go have fun in the other forums, but if you’re just trying to win converts, I’d say don’t bother.

No, but if it was untrue before, it’s still untrue no matter how many times you say it. The 2nd law of thermodynamics does not disprove evolution.

100

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Doesn’t make a difference. If you hold that this chapter refers to an individual person, then it ALL must refer to him. You can’t say “Well, 10 out of 12 is good.”

**

Sorry, friend. The Hebrew word used is zera. This word is alwaysused to refer to physical descendants.

**

You are, of course, entitled to beleve that. I disagree.

Even after all is said and done, you can’t say that this chapter points * exclusively * to Jesus. It could (and according to many commentators does) refer to Israel as a whole. And, we still disagree on the whole * zera * issue.

Zev Steinhardt