Question one: Can a person say something that is not true, but is not lying?
Question two: Can a person say something true, but is lying?
What exactly is the essence of a lie?
First case: Let’s say that my friend came to see me and asked me whether I had some sugar to lend him. I told him no, because earlier I made coffee and there was no sugar left, I didn’t use sugar.
No is not the right answer, because there was sugar in the house, for my wife bought a pack yesterday evening but she had not yet refilled the sugar dispenser.
Later on in the late afternoon my friend saw me using sugar with my coffee, so he drew the conclusion I was lying, becaue I did not want to be bothered with lending him sugar.
Was I lying?
Second case: Let’s say my son asked me, Dad can I have 20 dollars? I told him I had only some loose coins left in my clutch bag upstairs; so: sorry. However, I knew that I actually had some 45 dollars in the bag. Later I checked my money and found that I really had only some loose coins; for my good wife had earlier gotten all my bills to pay the delivery man for some purchases for the kitchen.
Can I congratulate myself that I did not lie?
What is the essence of a lie? The saying of something contrary to what one knows in his mind correctly or wrongly to be the truth, the fact.
First case: you do not, in fact, have sugar to lend the neighbor, so that was not a lie. Whether or not your friend thinks you were lying is irrelevant to whether or not you actually are.
Second case (with the caveat that IANAParent): you were, indeed, lying. To tell the truth would simply be to say “No, you may not have 20 dollars.” instead of “I do not have 20 dollars to give you.” Since the lie was based on your current knowledge, the fact that actually there was only loose change is not relevant.
A lie is a deliberate false statement intended to be taken as the truth. In your first example, you didn’t lie. You, believing there was no sugar, told your friend that. That belief was incorrect, but you sincerely believed it. In your second example, you did lie, because you told your son something you knew to be false (although you were mistaken there, also)
To elaborate on Capt Amazing’s definition, a LIE is a deliberately falsified statement based on what is known to be the truth at the time of the lie.
First case: You didnt lie. Not because you mislead him altho that was obviously your intention. He asked you if you had sugar to lend him. You didnt want to lend him anything (thus the misleading action) so the appropriate and truthful answer is no. You mislead him to avoid giving a factual reason. That you intended to lie and flubbed it is beside the point.
Second case: You did lie. Whether or not there was money in your clutch bag (didnt that go out in the early eighties?) You knew at the time that you did have the money to give to the kid. You purposely told him a lie. Just because there was no money when you checked it doesnt change the fact that you deliberately told something to your sweet innocent needy little boy that you knew wasnt true at the time.
Another case: Iraqi Men think that american soldiers use binoculars and night vision goggles to watch iraqi women get naked and that they sell or give away porn to young children. They tell this to other Iraqi men and they are NOT lying. It is the truth as far as they know. They were told this by other people (Saddam and his regime) and they believed it and so were spreading “the truth” to everyone. The fact that it is not true that americans use binoculars and night vision goggles to peek at women or that they give or sell pornography to iraqi children doesnt change the fact that the iraqi men told the truth as they knew it.
A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead based on the facts as you know them at the time.
It is not a lie to repeat a falsehood that you believe to be true. You are mistaken, ignorant, or suffering from other problem, but you are not lying if you indeed believe it is the truth at the time.
First case does not seem like a lie to me, the way I’ve read it. You did not know there was sugar because the dispenser was empty. When sugar was added to the dispenser later, you knew there was then sugar and you used it. If you did know there was sugar in the house, but did not want to bother with opening it to give your friend some, then you did lie by saying you did not have any so you could save yourself the trouble.
Second case is a lie. You thought you had 45 dollars, but mislead your son into thinking you did not even have 20 dollars. It was deliberate. Turns out later the money was not there anyway, but that doesn’t mean you were honest, because you intentionally attempted to mislead based on what you thought was the reality at the time.
Simply: to lie you have to tell someone something, whilst you believe that something to be false. Any other disshonest communication is not a lie but a desception.
What about a two part reply.
Scenario: I have no sugar, but I wouldn’t lend any to Bob even if I had.
Bob: “Can I borrow sugar”
Me : “I’d lend you some sugar, but right now I’m out.”
Such a thing would be a partial lie as part of the answer is truthful and part is a known falsehood.
It would still be a partial lie, no matter what I do in the future, so even if I warm to Bob, and next time he asks for sugar I give him some, that does not stop what I originally said from being a partial lie. Though from Bob’s perspective it seems like I was truthful.
Similarly if “I’d lend you some sugar, but right now I’m out.” was completely truthful at the time, but next time Bob asks I don’t whish to give him sugar (he’s borrowed too much stuff allready) my statement remains the truth. Though from Bob’s perspective it seems like it was a lie.
Now a grey area, what about situations where you interpret the question asked in such a way to avoid outright lieing.
Scenario Your talking to Bob just after passing Jan’s office and seeing her there.
Bob: “Do you know where Jan is?”
Me – thinks, -well I know where Jan was a minute ago, but I don’t want to tell Bob, and I don’t know where she is now as she could have left her office for any number of reasons-
since a lie is based on what you currently BELIEVE to be true, it is not a lie. It is simply stating an uncertainty without fully explaining yourself…at least, that’s how I percieve it.
Deceit. If you’re trying to deceive someone, whether the facts agree with you or not: That is lying.
In the first case, you were NOT trying to deceive your neighbor, even though in the end, you neighbor assumed you were lying to him, but that is your neighbor?s tragic folly. You said it yourself when your neighbor “drew the conclusion”, but he/she didn’t have all the facts. Therefore, you were not lying, because you were not attempting to deceive him, even though you were blamed (wrongfully) for lying in the end.
Second case: YES, you were lying because you were trying to deceive your son. This is the exact reverse case as the first scenario, because had the boy “drew a conclusion” after looking in the bag, he would have thought you were being honest.
Don’t confuse True and False with Honesty and Deceit… they are not necessarily the same thing. Lying/honesty is very subjective, while truth/false is objective.
There is a difference between a lie (a deliberate falsehood) AND misleading, which is not a lie but not a direct answer to the truth either.
I do this all the time to my kids to teach them to catch misleading statements. For Example:
Kids: Daaaaad! Did you eat my pie?
Me: Ask your mom…
Daughter: Did you you just talk to my boyfriend on the phone?!
Me: Now why would your boyfriend talk to me?
Son: What are you eating?
Me: Food
Son: What Kind of food?
Me: Good
Son: What kind of Good food?
Me: the kind that tastes great
Son: (miffed) What kind of good tasting food? … thats great
Me: the kind that is now gone.
Son: AAAARGGGHH!!
Thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread. I guess we can say generally that we all subscribe to the traditional ethical axiom that a lie is a speech against one’s own mind, whatever the reality be in the world outside our mind.
I must confess that I started this thread in order to show some people in these boards here that their idea of a lie not is not what they accuse me of committing. See that thread on Catholics and Anal Sex, page 2.
Well, again thanks for your interest and time and trouble.