I for one would like to think that there’s an inherent value to keeping promises and living up to commitments. Even if you don’t put much stock in marriage as an abstract concept, the OP’s wife is a real person who put her trust in him because he made a promise to put her happiness and welfare above his own immediate gratification. He owes her, at the very least, a good-faith effort to resist the old flame and make his current marriage work, even if that means making sacrifices.
Truthpizza said:
“I have to wonder about those who say it isn’t the infidelity that’s the problem, it’s the deception. It strikes me that they are trying to pretend that they’re not being sexually uptight or jealous but still want to have an excuse to be outraged.”
Um, I am with whynot on this one. As long as someone is upfront with me, I really don’t care if they are having sex with someone else. Again, sex with someone else is not the issue for me. It’s the lying. Trust me on this one, I know whereof I speak. So, from my empirical point, it’s the lying–not the sex.
Allow me to elaborate. First of all, I would not have said it was the lying over the sex if I did not have first hand knowledge.
Here are two real-life scenarios I lived through:
a) about 14 years ago, I had a relationship in which we had generally agreed to remain exclusive to each other. I found out she had had sex with someone else and lied to me about it. I found out that she lied about several other things. The result: I could no longer trust her about anything and we broke up.
b) Three years after relationship a, I developed a relationship with a new person. She and I agree to have an open relationship where we can do sexual things outside of our relationship as long as we both are open and honest about such things. 10 years later, we are still together…
As far as my personal experience goes, it has been the lying and not the sex that mattered to me.
My thing with the concept of “cheating” boils down to “I don’t treat words in a relationship context as if they had a different meaning than they do in any other context.”
Which means: “cheating” means “defraud”, “deceive”, “to break the rules”.
Any relationship will have a set of rules and expectations that are a part of how people expect their partner to behave towards them and others. There are a set of culturally default expected rules, more or less, and many people follow them; many people also prefer to make the rules in their relationships more or less explicit.
The blurry boundaries on “cheating” come, as far as I can judge, from three things:
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not everyone has the same rules. WhyNot and I are good examples of this phenomenon.
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not everyone has the same assumptions about the rules. An issue that I’ve seen crop up more than once, for example, is the one about how one spends one’s time – broadly speaking, one set of assumptions going something like, “Any time that isn’t specifically tasked to something else is time I spend with my partner” and another going something like, “Any time that isn’t specifically tasked to something else is mine to do with as I will.” A relationship between two people of these basic mindsets can be full of heaps of resentment – one person feeling that their partner’s choice to spend time not-with-them without consultation is a sign that they’re not valued or the relationship isn’t real, the other feeling that their partner is being creepily and unreasonably controlling and invasive of their space and resource-demanding.
I once responded to some people asking advice on meeting people to spend time with who said they had difficulty finding people who were compatible with both of them. When I suggested that they could make social contacts as individuals rather than as a couple, I got back a response of, “How dare you suggest that our marriage is in trouble like that!” Assumptions about the rules.
People who assume that of course one will only spend social time with members-of-attractive-sex under the supervision of one’s spouse will find the social habits of people who don’t have that assumption to be bordering on cheating at best – they have a rule there, other people don’t.
Which leads me to:
- nobody can negotiate the specifics of everything that matters to them. At some point, even the most hash-out-every-detail people will have places that they just assume that their partner shares their understanding of the rules. So long as people do share basic assumptions about behaviour, this isn’t a problem. So long as people, when they discover that they aren’t in agreement about the basic understanding of the rules, can resolve that quickly and without drama, this is only a transitory problem lasting until the rules are clarified explicitly.
The rest of the time, you can wind up with situations where one person is convinced that the other party is cheating, or betraying them in some way, or blowing them off, or any of a number of other nasty things, that their partner is completely oblivious to because they don’t share an understanding of the rules. Generally, because it was always obvious to one party that “When you’re in a relationship, you …” and thus it never got said, and someone with a different set of assumptions or a slightly different culture or whatever else won’t live the “Of course” of it. Dwama follows.
I agree. But the value isn’t infinite. The marriage commitment is particularly problematic because conforming to society’s expectations is often a big part of why we make it. In addition it is a commitment made for life, which any sensible person should regard as unreasonable if it weren’t a cultural tradition. How big a sacrifice a person should make in order to keep the commitment is a judgement call.
He presumably doesn’t want to tell his wife because he assumes she will be angry about it. If he’s right, is the wife putting his happiness and welfare above her own? Most likely both sides are selfish here.
One concern I have is that if he doesn’t ever meet with the old flame, he may forever wonder whether he has missed an opportunity for true happiness. It’s very likely he will meet with her and remember why they broke up or find that she has no interest beyond friendship. Then he can go on with his life without looking back.
Please tell me you’re not married.
Since when could you? You have to work during the day - you can’t do ‘what you like, when you like’. You have to pay bills, be responsible - you can’t do ‘what you like, when you like’. I’ve been alone for years. Theoretically have that glorious freedom you seem to love. Big woo. I never minded sharing with someone, and it’s no bother to me to be in a partnership. I grew out of the childish (or controlling) desire to have all of life my way when I grew up.
Nothing stops you from moving your butt except your lazy self.
Right. Blame the wife. Ever think that he’s grown up past enjoying spending an evening getting drunk with a bunch of drunks and just used his wife as an excuse?
Because if you’re adult enough to solve problems when they arise, you usually find that the situation afterward is better. If all you do is flee every time something gets difficult, you don’t grow or learn and you don’t get to feel the satisfaction of a challenge met and a problem overcome.
Happy little life you got, there.
He says he’s not married:
As long as the people who hate marriage stay unmarried themselves, I don’t have a problem with their opinion. It’s when married people start complaining that marriage is a prison that inherently sucks that I foresee trouble over their horizon.
Shawn1767
I accept your position as sincere, particularly given your examples. Part of my problem is that I had heard this kind of claim (its not the affair, it’s the deception) often in advice columns and the like and I really can’t imagine it’s that common for people to be open to their spouses having sex with other people. If I’m wrong about that, great.
Another problem I have is this. If dishonesty/secrecy is the real problem, why do people call it “cheating”? My grandfather kept all the family finances secret from my grandmother, and when he died she was shocked to find that they had been scrimping on their spending when he had a sizable sum accumulated in stock. He also didn’t tell her he was taking heart medicine. I have no doubt what he did was wrong, but was he “cheating on her”? Nobody would call it that. I know of several married women who hid the fact they were spending money they shouldn’t have spent from their husbands. Again they were wrong, but if someone said they were “cheating” on their husbands most people would take that to mean something very different.
The traditional meaning of “cheating” is adultery, which historically has been ultimate form of marital betrayal. If people really think deception is the worst possible form of betrayal, then call it deception. Calling it cheating is, well, deceptive.
I’ll go along with “break the rules”, but to me defraud and deceive have different meanings from “cheating”. And I do think that most people when they say “cheating” in a marital context actually mean sexual infidelity.
Nonetheless, all of those meanings can be found in dictionaries (as can “sexual infidelity”, often listed as a colloquialism). “Sexual infidelity” is only equated with “cheating” under the assumption that the rules include “sexual exclusivity”; further, it can only be taken as the sole possible meaning if one believes that “sexual exclusivity” is the only rule that actually matters.
A permanent commitment is unreasonable for some and reasonable for others. I agree that marriage isn’t the right choice for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If that kind of commitment was unreasonable for the OP, he shouldn’t have made it-- or he should have made it clear to his wife that he was vowing to stay married to her only until the opportunity arose to get back together with his old flame. Somehow I don’t think that’s how it went down.
Truthpizza, I guess it’s a matter of word choice, but in the example you give about the man hiding his taking heart medicine and the money he had from his wife I guess was not “cheating.” But I think it was highly probable that she was bothered to find out that he had been keeping all that from her.
I suppose my position boils down to that in a relationship there are some activities and events that a person can get over in time. I believe, in my opinion, that a violation in trust is probably the hardest to get over. It just seems from my experience with relationships and people in other relationships that if you peel away the layers, it’s the deception that hurts them the most. I don’t know if I would call it cheating, but I think it does lead to problems when you lie in a relationship. As for the OP, I think there are two issues here. In his mind, there is a point at which it’s “cheating” and that’s at the point when two people have sex behind someone else’s back. Other posters are saying that the intent is what matters. However, I want to break it down this way: He’s focusing on the act part of cheating, but doesn’t it bother him to begin with that he is lying to his spouse about something? I wouldn’t say lying is “cheating” since that means a specific thing in his mind, but perhaps he should examine the fact that he would decieve someone he’s married to. Does my position make more sense now?
I know this is probably hopeless, but you do realize what you’re saying is asinine, right?
NOBODY can simply do what they like when they like it, unless you have a hundred trillion dollars and the world’s nations declare the laws don’t apply to you. I’ve been single and I’ve been married and I’m telling you right now there’s no loss of “freedom,” unless, of course, you were married against your will, or you’re a total idiot. Hard though it may be for a frat boy to believe, some people got married because they wanted to. And if you don’t want to be married anymore, you can get divorced.
There’s also the inescapable fact that after awhile, you start remembering that every bachelor party you’ve ever been to was as much a pain in the ass as anything else and hangovers aren’t worth the trouble. Everyone does grow up at some point. I hate to break this to you, but the reason some of your married pals tell you they can’t do out with you is because **they don’t want to go out with you, ** and they’re just trying to not hurt your feelings. They just aren’t that in to you anymore.
I had this problem with my best friend. He wanted me to fly down there ten times a year to party and spend every weekend playing video games with him. I love him and everything, he’s been my best friend for more than half my life, but I quite honestly prefer spending time with my wife and kid over any other activity you can think of. I mean, I like visiting him a few times a year and playing the odd video game but not every damned week. So I kept making excuses.
Eventually he started whining a la your line; “waaaah, why can’t you do stuff with me, wahhhhh, your family wahhhhh, too much estrogen in your house, wahhhh.” I finally had to tell him “Look, bud, I really like hanging out with you now and then, but I like hanging out with my wife more. She’s better looking than you, too. I’m not rushing down there ten times a year because I just don’t want to, pal.” He wouldn’t believe me.
And then he met the love of his life, and they got married, and now he understands. He’s even admitted it to me; “Boy, now I see what you mean. I was being a jerk; I understand why you don’t want to play video games on the net all the time.” He’s obviously much happier now.
That said, a lot of people do get miserable in marriages. Many such people would be miserable anyway, of course; there’s not a shred of evidence people are happier single than married. In general, some people are just miserable because they’re inept boobs who screw up their relationships, and some people are happy and get along well with others, and it doesn’t much matter whether they’re married or single or whatever.
I don’t care if it’s called cheating or called phlebotning, it’s still the deception part of it that hurts MORE, even in people dedicated to monogamy. Frankly, your husband putting his penis in another woman doesn’t touch you one way or the other. It’s the meaning you give it that causes pain, and generally the meaning given is, “he doesn’t love me and he’s been playing me for a fool.”
What’s the wailing you hear from the spouse? “But I thought I knew him! Why would he do this to me? I had no idea! I can’t believe he’d do this to me! This is such a betrayal!” I’ve been there, and the cognitive dissonance when you realize someone is acting in a way which doesn’t fit your mental picture of them is a bitch! It doesn’t have to be about infidelity: I was recently oddly outraged that my husband (in my mental picture, the perfect anti-jock academic geeky type) wanted to watch the TV show Friday Night Lights. When I groused about the barbaric jock mentality that football typifies to me, he sniped back with a bunch of pro-football talk about the making of men. It really, really bothered me, until I realized that it bothered me because it didn’t fit my image of him, not because I cared what TV shows he watches.
I’m not trying to say that everyone, or even most people, would be fine and accepting of their spouse being totally open and honest and saying, “honey, I’ve decided I want to have sex with other people, and there’s this woman at the office I’m going to ask out on Friday.” I’d expect most people would be shocked and dismayed. But even there, the shock and dismay comes because you realize that this isn’t the person you thought it was - he’s been deceiving you about who he is, or, as **Lilairen **says, you had assumptions about him that weren’t true (which, emotionally, come down to the same thing. Practically, if you can identify and admit your assumptions, I think you have a better chance of saving the relationship.)
We all have stories about other people. We think we know how they think and behave when we’re not around. When they don’t live up to that story, we get pissed.
No. My opinion is based on what I have witnessed in other people’s marriages.
I don’t “have to work”. I choose to work because I would rather live in an appartment than under the Port Authority Bus Terminal. I work where I work because it’s interesting, the coworkers are fun, it pays me really well and I have a position of authority and autonomy. I pay my bills because I chose to sign up for whatever product or service I am paying for.
I’m responsible for my own life. What I don’t want is someone to tell me things like “you can’t go hang out with your friends”, “you spend too much time golfing”, or “we have to move because I want a bigger house”.
They say marriage is a compromise. Well, a compromise is the worst outcome in a negotiation because it generally means both parties end up with an arrangement that falls short.
So good for you. So why aren’t you married then?
Yeah, that’s right. Everyone who goes out for a few drinks with their pals is a “bunk of drunks” :rolleyes:
I know his wife. She’s a controlling pain in the ass. He was barely “allowed” to have his own bachelor party and we’re never supposed to talk about it. (I never talk about it anyway because it was so lame but whatever).
I’m not surprised. If you speak to everyone who you disagree with in the same hostile tone you are displaying here, you’ll probably be alone for a long time.
I don’t “have to be married.” I choose to be married because I would rather live with my wife than alone or with anyone else. I married who I married because she is interesting, she is fun, she is a good partner with whom to face the rest of the world, and she has a great rack. I incorporate her wants and needs into my planning because I chose to sign up for the benefits associated with her daily presence in my life.
You know this is silly, right? I mean, I chuckle when I watch them, but King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond don’t actually represent the Way Marriage Works. Husbands and wives don’t all walk around desparately trying to get what they want and failing. Sometimes, husbands and wives want the same things. In fact, smart boyfriends and smart girlfriends figure out that they want a substantial number of the same things before they become smart husbands and smart wives. Often, having my particular wife makes it possible for me to have more of the things I want than I would on my own.
There are miserable single people, too. Doesn’t mean anything about single people in general.
Lots of them.
To address the OP: If you’re doing things you don’t want your wife to know about/find out about (which it sounds very much like you are), then you’re cheating.
Cheating in a relationship isn’t so much about the physical act of sexual intercourse as it is about violating the trust your partner has placed in you to abide by the terms of your deal.
Sensible people, before they embark on the voyage that is a committed relationship, discuss what their expectations of each other are and will be. They essentially agree what their rules are.
My husband and I know what the other is expecting from us in the context of our relationship.
The little voice that’s telling you to hide things from your wife is actually telling you that you’re on your way to breaking the rules of your relationship - if you haven’t already.
I’ll do what I know to be futile and respond to msmith:
My marriage isn’t a trap. It’s the best thing I ever did for myself. My husband feels the same way. If you don’t believe me, feel free to send him an email and ask. He’s **Nanook of the North Shore ** and his email is in his profile. I won’t even tell him I referred you to him - so you can have his unprepared response. I was happy single, but I’m happier married. A good many people feel the same way. Just because you disagree doesn’t make us trapped or foolish or mentally defective - in the way you get such a kick out of implying every time you discuss the topic of marriage (which, I might add, as someone I’ve never seen admit to ever having been married, you don’t know a damn thing about).
A permanent relationship might be good for many people, but I genuinely feel that a permanent commitment is bad for everybody. I think there are some religions that say you should never make a promise because you can never be sure you can keep it. I wouldn’t go that far, but to make a promise that extends many years into the future is a bad idea. But most of us do when it comes to marriage. Why? Because it is the custom, everybody says it’s a good idea, and you’re going to have a hard time fitting in if you don’t.
But I for one will never blame a person if they think their marriage was a mistake and they consider breaking that commitment. If my wife ever wanted to leave me, I cannot imagine anything more cruel and selfish than to demand that she stay with me for my sake. But it seems like most of the world sides with the cruel and selfish person in this situation, because they are so concerned about the other person “honoring their commitment”.
If there is a reasonable chance that a questionable marriage can be improved, I agree with those that say we should make a reasonable attempt. But there is a limit. I have a friend who’s marriage went sour after about 9 years (I think) and he spent most of the next 20 years trying to save it. It ruined his life.
truthpizza, can I ask you a semi-personal question? Feel free to ignore it if you don’t want to answer.
When you got married, did you modify the vows to remove the “as long as we both shall live” and similar language, and replace it with something more like “as long as we both make each other happy” or “as long as we both think it’s a good idea”? I can understand people who say they intended to stay married permanently, but it didn’t work out that way. You seem to be saying that your marriage commitment was never intended to be permanent, even at the outset.
I think your overall point of view is valid, I’m just honestly curious how you square it with the concept of marriage as commonly understood in our society. Thanks.
Who are you trying to convince? Us, or yourself?
Ask yourself some questions:
Why did you mention you feel guilty about the old flame, but didn’t mention it about the work acquaintance?
Why would you be uncomfortable if your wife found out about the old flame?
Why did you mention that you have problems with your marriage, and that she has “a spot in your heart”? If this is an innocent meeting, those things would be irrelevant. The fact that you brought them up indicates that you’re thinking about the possibility of something happening with this woman. THAT’S why it’s different.
I think you know the answer to your question already. You’ve already decided on a course of action, and now you’re trying to rationalize it to yourself.