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In the scene described, the boy dashes past her and grabs at her breast in passing. By the time she’d be able to react, he’d be long gone, so she’d be in the position of chasing him down to ‘defend herself’.
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In the school enviroment, in general, most schools have specific and heavy handed punishments for hitting. The longer an event like hit/hitback/hit/hitback goes on, the more likely the authorities will come in break it up and both will suffer repercussions. In addition, the more involved a hit/hitback scene goes on, the greater the liklihood of injury. If she’s smaller, she’ll be the one injured. Yes, we all hear and cheer about the little girl with the well tossed knee in the groin, but it doesn’t happen as easily as the movies show.
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Be careful of assuming ‘self defense’ is valid defense even as an adult. In my state (MI), you are to do what is necessary to extract yourself from the situation & call the police, and no more. For example, there was a woman who’s large male neighbor got angry with her, came over started choking her. 2 people attempted to drag him off of her, she was able to reach a baseball bat and hit him a couple of times. SHE was charged and convicted of assault (since she hit him again after he let go). Another one used his fists against some stranger trying to choke him. Again, he got charged and convicted of assault.
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“defending yourself” does not always mean ‘hitting back’. For example, some one grabbing my arm, I can choose to ‘defend myself’ by yanking my arm away or by kicking his shins. I’d suggest the former would be considered correct ‘self defense’ while the other is more of a retaliation. In the case described, the improper touching is not long in duration, so any physical reaction she’d make would probably be in the retaliation sense.
First, what Dinsdale said. (And I’m so sorry about the scouting situation - when I have kids, it’ll be very hard for me not to go “The Hand that Rocks the Cradle” on little shits like that.)
Now, the reason she can’t just defend herself is twofold:
1.) The school may have an idiotic “zero tolerance” rule, and suspend her for hitting someone, no matter the cause.
2.) It could escalate to further violence, either immediately or later.
I’d say do what Dinsdale said, explaining to your daughter why it MUST be reported, even if it is socially uncomfortable. (BTW, a shrill “stop it or I’ll sue” will only make her appear weaker, IMHO.)
Once the school authorities are informed by letter of the problem, if they don’t remedy the situation, I’d say there could be room for her to physically defend herself by preventing the unwanted touching, but only if she is physically capable, and has reason to think it will help and not escalate the violence. I think punching the kid after he’s touched her is pretty futile and dangerous.
Finally, I wouldn’t cart her off to therapy willy nilly. If she is having problems coping, sure, but if she is doing OK generally, pushing her into counseling could just make this much more traumatic.
Good luck.
There’s a lot of good advice in this thread, but I’d like to add and emphasize a few points.
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As several people mentioned this sort of breast-grabbing behavior is not uncommon for junior high school boys. In fact, when I was in junior high, I recall overhearing some of my classmates who were somewhat behind on the social development scale discussing just this sort of activitiy. I’m sure that it’s something that the school administration has dealt with before, so they won’t be particularly surprised by the report. I also would be very surprised if they ignore your report.
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The boys know what they are doing is wrong, but they’re doing it because they can get away with it. Once they know that your daughter (and other girls, too, I hope) will report their behavior, they will probably stop.
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Documenting what has occurred (and who it was reported to) is very important. I would suggest that you and your daughter start and keep a log (just a list on a pad is fine) of each incident that occurs, including names and places. Also list each person to whom you report the incidents, including when and where the meeting/call took place, who was present, and what was said.
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After each meeting/call with an official, you should send a brief letter to that official summarizing what was said and what actions the official said he or she would take. You should indicate that you will be following up and when you expect to hear back. For example,
Dear Principal Jones:
Thank you for taking the time to meet with me and Mrs. Bill this afternoon, January 19 at 3:00 to discuss incidents involving our daughter ________. As we discussed, over the past several weeks our daughter has been assualted by several boys (including Bob Brown, Gary Green and Ron Red), who have come up to her, grabbed her breasts, and run away. You have said that you will have an assistant principal investigate the incident, and start a proceeding under the school district’s disciplinary process. I expect to hear from you or the assistant principal sometime next week regarding the results of the investigation and what disciplinary actions have been taken. Thank you.
You do not need to have the letters written or reviewed by the lawyer. Simply make them factual and descriptive. Do not threaten to sue or go to the police. If they get business-like letters from you, they will understand that you are serious, and expect that you are willing to take those further steps if you don’t get satisfaction. (If you would like me to briefly review any letters you wish to send, feel free to e-mail them to me).
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Expect that the officials will not be able to provide an immediate response, but will rather invoke some disciplinary process. Before a student is disciplined, they have the right to have due process appropriate to the level of the violation and punishment. However, do not let the disciplinary process become a way to bury this. If you are consistent in following up, they won’t be able to hide what is going on.
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Expect that there may be some issues with the confidentiality rights of the students that are disciplined. I do not know the law in this area, and your state may have specific rules, but if what you are told by the school officials does not satisfy you, ask in writing that they provide you with a written report of all that they are able to legally disclose.
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I respect your wish to go along with your daughter’s wishes in responding to these incidents, though I agree with those who say that this is one of those times when your role as a parent may override her conclusion as to what the best course of action is. I would attempt to convince her that reporting this is the right thing to do, and the consequences of not reporting it are worse than the alternative. I would emphasize that there are probably other girls being harrassed, the boys know it is wrong but think they can get awa with it and this is a time when she should stand up for her rights. I would use this as a practical example for her of how to deal with injustice and wrong-doing in the world (and that doing the right thing often comes at some personal cost).
Good luck with your situation, and let me know if I can be of any further help.
Bill
I’ve had to deal with similar situations in the past couple of years. Although as a father I’d like to knock hell out of these boys, but that isn’t a realistic option. The teacher/principal route if it doesn’t fall on deaf ears is sometimes a problem for the student victom as pointed out by other posters. Same with the police. Hmmmm…Bill, don’t you know some nice fellows in your church that are say 15 or 16, play football and really hate seeing a girl groped like this? Worked for me.
later, Tom.
Good point, but what I would teach my daughter, if I had one, if attacked, use whatever force you can to get away from the attacker, then find help, alert the authorites etc. In this case, the attacker is running off immediately, so going runing after them and hitting them would not be self defense, at least legally, in the real word or in school. Not that I don’t think they diserve to get their ass kicked.
Thank everyone very very much for all the replies. Ya’ll are very empathetic and helpful and I appreciate it.
I have a learned a little more. She said some of these boys are her friends. And she doesn’t want to get them into trouble because they are also friends with her friends. And she afraid her other friends will hate her. I told her if they were real friends they wouldn’t.
To make matters worse we both watched a TV movie about this very subject called “Standing Alone” or something like that a little while back. Where this girl stands up to the football players for doing this very same thing and the school takes the football players side. Then all of her friends start to dislike her. And she had to a get a lawyer and go through all kinds of stuff but eventually she won in court.
I think my daughter is scared that all stuff is going to happen to her or at least some of it. So I told her well you know if these guys are your so-called friends, you should tell them that what they are doing makes you feel uncomfortable and down right scared and you want them to stop it. She agreed. So she said she would tell me what happened when she does this. I am still thinking about us going to the principal to at least bring the problem to his attention.
If ya’ll would like, I will keep ya’ll informed on what happens.
Wring, what sentences did those two people get in your self defense stories that got charged with assault and battery? Man both of those sound ridiculous that they got charged. I am glad I live Texas.
Hmm.
I don’t care. If someone inappropriately touches my daughter, then I think she should slap him across the face with full force.
Now it has been my experience that most 12-18 y.o. boys will not hit back if justifiably slapped by a woman/girl. Therefore, the only time she should not hit back is if the perpetrator has a history of violence. In either case, I would personally be involved.
I am a firm believer that women/girls should not take any B.S. from men/boys. When inappropriately touched or attacked, women should do everything in their power to force the perpetrator to immediately pay for their action. That’s why I support self defense training (karate, etc.) for women/girls of all ages, and urge all women of legal age to get a Concealed Carry permit if your state allows it.
To further press the point: When each of my daughters gets to be the ripe old age of 21, they will get a 10 mm Glock for their birthday. From me. And training at Thunder Ranch. Again, paid for by me. Ain’t no one gonna mess with my daughters and get away with it. (Now we just have to convince the State of Ohio to allow CC, and we’ll be home free.)
Stop off at a bookstore on your way home and buy your daughter a $6.99 paperback called The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker. It’ll empower her and (hopefully) give her the strength to confront these bullies herself.
Good luck to her!
The woman who hit her attacker with a base ball bat was sentenced to one month’s probation (I’ve never before or since heard of a sentence that light - I suspect the judge looked at it as morally defensable, but legally wrong) the other was a young man, long hair etc., but had never been in trouble before etc. He got 6 months in jail, some probation (about a year, I think).
If you ever have a chance go into your courtrooms and listen on sentencing day - you’ll be surprised, I’ll bet, by the disparity. A guy I know was shot 6 times. 6 times. One of the bullets can’t be removed. He spent about as much time recovering from his wounds as his assailant did in jail (around 6 months). When he found out his attacker was out, he started carrying a gun illegally (yea, poor choice). He was caught with it, and did a year for CCW.
anyhow. good luck w/your daughter (stop watching made for tv movies with her, no wonder she’s afraid.). I’m really concerned - I can’t believe that she hasn’t in some way let these jerks know she doesn’t appreciate it.
Anyhow, please post the results?
I have heard that’s a pretty good book. However, it is Jeff Cooper’s opinion that anger, not fear, is the most helpful emotion when confronted with an attacker. I tend to agree.
These perverts being her “friends” really complicates things.
If her friends are any sort of decent human beings at all, they will stop if your daughter tells them, privately, sternly, and in no uncertain terms, to stop! Oftentimes, if someone is being treated inappropriately, especially around a group of friends, her only recourse is to say, “Hey, stop it!” which is very ineffectual as the guys will just think she’s being playful and really doesn’t care, or likes it. Sad, but guys at that age are generally idiots.
Oh, Bill. My dear. Attend to me carefully. You need to be the one to handle this for your daughter. You need to be the one to take the initiative. She can’t do it by herself; she needs you to help her.
It will NOT be sufficient for you to tell her to simply “tell the principal”. She’s not old enough or mature enough to be able to present her case forcefully, if she even overcomes her normal teen shyness and makes it into the Principal’s office in the first place.
It will not be sufficient for you to give her a book on female empowerment. I’m in my forties and I still have trouble confronting bullies. I would never expect a 14-year-old who is already self-conscious about her breasts to be able to tell a bunch of boys in the hallway to keep their hands to themselves.
Do this:
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Call the principal on the phone. Explain the situation calmly. Don’t fling threats about how the school board won’t recognize itself when you get done with it. You need him to take you seriously.
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Make an appointment to see him. Don’t just drop by and hope he’s in.
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Show up. On time. Don’t laugh, I’m looking at it from the standpoint of the busy, harassed administrator.
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Dress nice. Look clean. Look serious.
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Outline the situation. Be calm. Again, don’t make threatening remarks, but DO make it clear that you will not hesitate to seek legal redress if the situation is not rectified. Your daughter has the right to attend school without having guys grabbing her tits.
And the most important thing:
- Take your daughter with you to this meeting. Pull her out of class to do it. This will underscore the seriousness of it, to the principal, to her (you are taking her seriously), and most of all, to the guys involved. They are in Deep Shit now. Little Wild’s dad has taken the day off work and is in a meeting with the principal. You guys are toast.
Also, she needs to learn to stand up for herself, and this will be a valuable lesson for her in how the adult world works. It’s not good for her to stay home and let Daddy handle the whole thing.
If she hits them, she will be disciplined, go to detention, it will go on her school record, it will look very bad.
If YOU hit them, you will go to jail, or at the very least, face a stiff fine and a term of community service, not to mention getting your name in the paper.
This is the 21st century–we use lawsuits, not fists. And you should avoid direct confrontation with these boys and their families. Go through channels–use the school, the principal, and if you have to, lawyers and the police.
And most school boards won’t even get involved with this kind of thing. They’ll let you get up and talk at a school board meeting, but it won’t make the nasty boys stop grabbing your daughter’s tits.
School boards tend to let the principal (and the lawyers) handle it. And they’ve seen lots and lots of outraged parents come and go. Okay, we’ve let Mr. Wildest have his say–any other new business?
And finally,
- Reassure her she is NOT a tattletale. By pulling these guys up short this early in their career, she may actually be doing them a perverse sort of favor. Nasty boys who start out grabbing tits in the hallway sooner or later graduate to grabbing a girl out behind the gym after a basketball game when no one’s around. They need to learn a sharp lesson about sexual harassment. I’m sorry that it’s your daughter who evidently has drawn the short straw.
Eh, I didn’t see anything in the OP that said that these guys were her friends.
This sounds like “some guys”, not “guys that are my friends”.
You don’t know it, Bill, but she is also worried that she might be accused of leading them on. This fear is very common among victims of sexual harassment. “Well, you didn’t say anything the first time, so I figured you didn’t mind, how come you didn’t speak up sooner? Admit it, you liked it, didn’t you?”
That sort of thing. :rolleyes:
Okay, I went back through Page 1 more slowly (my slow and cranky server problems are unending :rolleyes: ) and found this:
My advice to “go through channels” still stands, though. For one thing, this makes YOU out to be the Bad Guy in the eyes of her peer group, which is a Good Thing. It takes the heat off her. “Well, I told my dad about this and he went ballistic, he’s even talking about lawsuits and stuff…”
And if you try to deal with these guys directly, they’ll either just guffaw derisively in your face, or, worse, stand there going, “Yes, Mr. Wild, no, Mr. Wild” and then just keep on doing it.
Trust me, Bill, I think your daughter WANTS you to handle this for her, or at least to make your presence felt. She doesn’t know what else to do, so she went to Dad for help. Don’t just toss the ball back in her court and expect her to deal with a problem that has baffled many adults.
I don’t know about going to the principal…As a guy I ran into my share of people wanting to kick my rear every now and then and the WORST thing was having my mom go to the principal once, who in turn had a “talk” with the guy, who in turn had a “talk” with me after school, but this time off school grounds and in a less public place.
Personally, I would get the scariest looking friend I can find to put on a black trenchcoat and shades, the whole “assassin” look, go in one day with the girl pointing out who the boys were, then take them around the corner and threaten the hell out of them with an evil glare and reassurance of the horrible things that will happen to them if they touch her again…then walk away and not go back. If they tell the principal and want to sue for threats and such, no one will ever see the scary guy again and it’ll get brushed off as “A dad hiring an assassin to threaten two 14 year old boys? Suuuuure…” The boys think they’re invulnerable because they keep doing it and getting away with it…They need someone to point out that they should be thinking about their actions a bit more.
Anyway, take this in jest or as serious advice, heh…I, for one, know that would scare the hell out of me more than having the principle talk to me about “legal action”. 
- Tsugumo
Bill, you and I have had our differences in the past, but when I read the OP, I wanted to cry. I feel for your daughter, and if she wants, I know some forums where she can talk about this with other people who have had the same thing happen to them.
Another thing-reassure her that it’s NOT HER FAULT. MANY girls feel they did something wrong, or “lead the boys on”, or something like that. I don’t care what you wear, or how you act-that is fucking assault.
Also-if she decides to keep telling them to stop, no please, don’t touch me crap. Try: “Get your hands off me, asshole!”
or, “Get the fuck away from me, creep.” said VERY firmly and very direct, with a no-nonsense look might let the boys know how angry she is.
As for her so-called “friends”, if they hate her for not wanting to be sexually harassed and assaulted, fuck them, they are NOT her friends.
Most importantly-she needs your love and support right now, which I KNOW you give to her. That’s the best thing.
Hope everything goes okay-keep us posted, and let her know we’re rooting for her.
I remember when I was 11, I was riding the bus and for a few days, this kid in 7th grade from the middle school (I went to Catholic school) would sit by me and say things like, “Hey Sexy,” and “I want to get you in bed.” I was terribly upset. Now, that may sound pretty lame, and nowadays I’d be more likely to offer a withering glance (something I’m VERY good at!) and say, “Yeah, in your dreams, loser!”, I was only an 11 year old girl only starting puberty, embarassed about my body, sex, attention from boys, etc etc. So I started crying in one of my classes. I eventually switched seats to sit behind the bus driver-I was the first one on the bus-and he left me alone.
Good luck!
(Sorry for some PIt-like language, mods. This kind of thing just has me OOOZING venom.)
When I was a sophomore in high school (about 3 years ago, give or take), I was friends with this kid Drew, and also with a girl named Anita. Drew was the flirty type, the kind of guy who would think nothing of walking up to a girl he barely knew and slapping her ass, or pinching her boobs. For almost 2 years, he greeted my every day when he saw me by poking at my breasts, or trying to pull up my shirt so he could get a look. It didn’t matter if we were alone, or in the middle of a crowded hallway. I never said anything.
Anita, however, minded a lot. She eventually got fed up with ihs shit, went to the administration, and filed a formal sexual harassment complaint. And when they asked for a list of other girls who could testify against him? She named me. He could’ve been expelled for what he’d done, and I knew that. Despite how horrible and cheap he made me feel about myself, I protected him. He was my friend. When the assistant principal asked me if he’d ever touched me, I didn’t mention the photograph I had of him with his hand copping a feel from the year before. I didn’t mention all the times i felt like one of his little sluts. I didn’t mention him pressing me against the lockers and molesting me. I told them how Anita had always acted bitter because Drew didn’t want to date her, and that I thought she could be making everything up. A few days later, the case was dropped.
I don’t regret much I’ve done in my shortlived life, but that’s definitely one of the things I would take back if I could. Poor Anita probably put everything she had in getting him reported, and I catered to the asshole. Please, don’t let your daughter cater to anyone…it’s a lifetime of emotional hell.
Do you guys think that being nasty would be reducing oneself to the same level as the boys doing the nasty things?
Yeah, I agree, going the “dirty tricks”/“intimidation” route would only make the situation worse. Especially if, as so often happens, the strategy doesn’t work. Say the nasty boys refuse to be intimidated, and only redouble their efforts. Then where do you go from there? You can hardly redouble your intimidation efforts–you’ll be forced to go through channels anyway, but you will have lost face with the nasty boys, for trying the intimidation route and failing.
If you go through channels to begin with, school authorities/threat of lawsuit etc., there are steps in the ladder, so if Step 1 doesn’t work, you have more options, for Step 2 and Step 3. And it’s a route that is sanctioned by Society, so you get a lot more support from the community, as opposed to the intimidation route.
They’re 14 year old boys going around copping a feel off girls in the hall and running away, not adults who know how the world works and will consider the effects if the police are involved and all that. When I was going through crap, I was told that the principal can’t even do anything (except talk to the person about it) if it’s not on school ground.
And in 4 months when the girl has her name all over the newspapers about the pervert schoolboy lawsuit, and the entire school is talking about how she keeps going after them and begins the rumor spreading and she’s forced to go to class every day knowing that in the background there’s a bunch of legal junk going on with the whole community “supporting” her and all that…I’m not in her position, but I have a feeling she doesn’t WANT all that attention and to rally the entire city against the boys…she just wants them to stop.
But I’m just going by my experiences, and maybe schools work differently now. Hopefully they do, as I spent many a day trying to figure out different ways to get home and get by the guys standing just on the other side of the “End School Zone” sign with evil grins, heh.
- Tsugumo