You are Jack Chick and I claim my $5.
More random Islam-related stuff:
**monty2_2001, ** I don’t know why I’m bothering, because I don’t think you seem inclined to listen to reason, but what the heck.
Jews and Muslims coexisted peacefully in many places for hundreds of years. I’m most familiar with the Caucasus and Central Asia, and a bit with Spain before the Expulsion, but in the Russian Empire Jews fared far, far worse in Slavic-inhabited areas than in primarily Muslim-inhabited areas. That would, in fact, be how I ended up being born in the U.S.; my (Jewish) ancestors left from Belarus, Latvia, Poland, and Ukraine, respectively, due to anti-Semitism on various levels.
In my career and personal life I’ve spoken to hundreds of Jews who lived in Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, as well as hundreds more from Ukraine, the Baltics, Russia, and other Slavic-inhabited areas. None of the ones who left Central Asia or the Caucasus ever complained about any incidence of anti-Semitism perpetrated on them by a Muslim, except one guy from Azerbaijan (and that was because he was half-Armenian and had an Armenian name, but that’s a whole other thread). If you’d like, when I get home I can cite the issue of Foreign Affairs on my bookshelf which refers to the phenomenon of anti-Semitism in Slavic vs. Muslim areas of the FSU.
I actually dated a North Caucasian Muslim (Sunni, by the way, as most North Caucasian and Central Asian Muslims are, and there are tens of millions of them) for nearly three years, and his family had no problem with my being Jewish, although being well-indoctrinated in communism they weren’t so crazy about me being American.
Just like there are many flavors of Christianity or Judaism, there are many flavors of Islam. Don’t be so darn simplistic, and you’d be amazed what you might learn.
In my career and personal life I’ve spoken to hundreds of Jews who lived in Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, as well as hundreds more from Ukraine, the Baltics, Russia, and other Slavic-inhabited areas. None of the ones who left Central Asia or the Caucasus ever complained about any incidence of anti-Semitism perpetrated on them by a Muslim, except one guy from Azerbaijan (and that was because he was half-Armenian and had an Armenian name, but that’s a whole other thread).
No, it’s true. “Allah” is a contracted version of “al Illah”, which is an Arabic word meaning “the god”.
“Allah” is not the Arabic name meaning “I Am”?
There’s no verb for existence (“to be”) in Arabic, so unless I’ve overlooked an arcane part of the language I don’t believe it would be possible to convey that meaning.
Publius,
The verb “to be” is KANA (root: kaf-waw-nun)
Kana has many uses in both standard and classical Arabic.
In sentences expressing the present it isn’t necessary to write/use it, so normally you won’t find it in such. The imperfectum is mostly used to express futurum.
To give some examples when used with an other verb:
Kana in perfectum with following verb in perfectum = plus quam perfectum.
Kana in perfectum with following verb in imperfectum: expression of duration in the past.
Kana in imperfectum with following verb in perfectum = futurum exactum.
Kana has also the forms II (kanna) V ( takanna) and X (istakana).
Hope this little bit of incomplete explanation helps you with your discovery of the beauty of the cruel yet fascinating complexity of the Arabic language. 
Salaam. A.
Aldebaran,
I really do value your major point, that there is great deal more to Islam than Western public can learn from the media only. I am well aware that terrorism doesn’t represent Islam. I know there is great beauty in Islam. I know that profound truths, common to all great religions, are reaffirmed in the writings of Qur’an. I agree that this message is worth repeating. What is my problem with you repeating it, then? Frankly, I think you are not doing it well enough. If you want to get your point across, you need to put in a lot more effort. When you state dismissively that there can be no Islamic terrorists proper and that Western media is obsessed with pinning terrorism on Islam, and then you leave it at that, to me you sound as conceited and evading responsibility.
No matter how grossly MENA terrorists pervert the true spirit of Islam, the fact is they come from Islamic world, they were reared, educated and developed their personalities in Islamic countries. On top of that, they are clearly devoted to their own interpretation of Islam, as evidenced by their constant recitals of Islamic dogmas in words and writings. They may be not well educated, but they do study Qur’an, usually under guidance of Islamic clerics. When, after all that they go and kill a bunch of Westerners, justifying their actions in the name of Islam, it is perfectly legitimate for the West to get mad and ask: “What the hell is going on? If your religion is so great, how come you fail to rear normal human beings? Or is your religion a dead carcass that produces only maggots?” Islamic world is collectively responsible for the actions of terrorists that kill in the name of Islam; if you deny that, you are being evasive. People like you need to do a lot more to explain the situation and apologize for the horrible incidents at least. You also really need to show what is being done within Islam to eliminate this perversion, because so far the overwhelming opinion in the West remains that Islam is not capable of fighting terrorism without Western help. Islamic intellectuals like you owe this much to the West, and owe even far more to Islam, if it still can be saved. Instead, you are trying to get away by saying: “Terrorism is against the letter of Islam, therefore there are no Islamic terrorists, such is the Truth, case closed.” That only makes people more angry.
BTW, your attitude in that respect is not original. When I talk to people who blindly worship Western civilization and I say that Nazism was a product of the Western culture, they answer that Nazi ideology was against all Western ideals, therefore no good denizen of the West could have been a Nazi, case closed. Those people and you equally look to me like typical self-appointed apologists.
I understand that the memory of the crusades is still alive in Islamic lore. Well, perhaps we can finally put it to rest by saying that those marauding European knights were not really good Christians, case closed? Is that a consolation?
When you criticize Western media for sticking to sound bites that connect Islam with terrorism, you appear as avoiding responsibility again. You want the media to do the research and correct itself, instead of going to work yourself and try to push the change through. When a regular journalist think he can summarize the image of perpetrators of the latest atrocity as “Islamic terrorists” he’s often not going to bother saying “terrorists that commit violence in the name of Islam”, his editor might cut it anyway. Though, to be fair, one can see a balanced description much more often than you admit.
P.S. About numbers: 60 tourists were killed in Luxor attack in 1997 (60=5 dozens). Care to revisit my question about your statement on “thousand of thousands of 9/11” in Iraq? (3,000,000+3,000,000+…?=?)
Oh I agree completely, the Catholics in Ireland have made quite a name for themselves as well. Still, you have to admit that muslims take the cake when it comes to modern terrorism.
Salaam
(Is it ok for me to say Salaam? No disrespect intended if I did not use the word properly.)
Dammit, is my face red.
I should no better than to try to answer questions things that I almost sort of half-know, but… no. No, I obviously don’t.
Crimeny.
I have honestly never, ever encountered that verb, and I thought I’d gotten to the point where I could handle an everyday conversation pretty well. How ominous.
Shukran jazillan, Aldebaran; asif.
Consider him vehemently denounced. Enough said.
Badshah Khan was a Pashtun tribal leader from around the Khyber Pass. He believed that the British needed to be driven out, but violent war would neither work, nor would it be consistant with his understanding of Islam. He gathered several thousand Afghan men together in an unarmed army and did in the north what Ghandi did in the south. Look for the book “A man to match his mountains” for a more detailed, if probably a bit slanted story.
Peace upon you always
Martin
Bongmaster,
Salaam means simply “peace”. I think it is OK for everyone to use that word as a greeting formula to everyone.
Publius,
No need to get “red in the face” because kana was until now a hidden treasure for you. Now you can start exploring its possibilities. (heheh… sinister laugh imagining someone falling into a few predicatable traps which make use of Arabic language such a great adventure).
Salaam. A.
I only state that the labelling “Islamic” terrorists is a fantasy of the Western mind because it is an impossibility to combine the two words as if they belong together. They don’t. That is my point.
By the way: why should it be my responsibility that people commit crimes? Is it your possibility if people coming from your country or region or religion or whatever commit crimes?
So? Some terrorists come from other countries, were reared, educated and developped their personalities there. What is your point?
Well, if you have an interpretation of Islam, you are as good as they are, no?
And who says they are reciting Islamic dogmas and writings? You do. I say they don’t. So who of us both is in the better position to judge this?
Anyone can “study Al Qur’an” like anyone can study the Bible or no matter which book or issue. Does that mean automatically that the person is a scholar?
I am a scholar in Islam. So in your opinion I’m among those who teach unexisting stories to persons in order to get them to go out and kill innocents? Well thank you, but I have better things to fill my days with.
By the way: what you choose to call “Islamic clerics” doesn’t even exist in reality. An Imam is not a “cleric” in the sense Westerners are used to use such a word. There is no such thing as a religious hierarchy in Islam. Of course some Imams have more influence then others, but not even the sheich of the Al Azhar - who are since centuries given a prominent position in Sunni Islam - have any authority to claim they are “the leaders” of the Muslims.
By the way, now that it comes to the Al Azhar: did you see any promotion of terrorism coming from that corner? I didn’t.
Well, it is the fault of those who ask such questions that they ask them. Any normal thinking person can come to the reasoning that what some people claim to do in the name of no matter what, doesn’t make this no matter what responsible for those people’s actions. People are responsible for their actions. Not whatever they claim to represent.
There are a lot of sociological and historical indications and explanations as to how people can be brought to become terrorists. Yet it isn’t my responsibility to explain that. I don’t tend to give classes on the development of terrorism worldwide.
I do work sometimes to contribute in clearing this mess up. Voluntarely. Unpaid. It even costs me a lot - an I mean: a whole lot - of money.
So thank you very much for the invitation, but I don’t feel any need at all to apologize for the deads of others. Let be explain them. Why on earth should that be something that keeps me awake?
Do you apologize if someone else commits a crime? Well, then you can keep buzy 24/24 for the rest of your days to apologize for all the crimes committed on this globe, no?
Well surprize, but we are fighting this mess since decades. Yet whenever we did put such elements away, safely behind bars where they belong, the so called “humans rights groups” especially the USA ones started screaming that we put the “opposition” in jail.
Result: The criminals get free, immigrate to the idiotic Western nations who embrace them as oh so poor persecuted “political asielment seekers”, even give them the nationality, let them recrute under their very eyes, ignore our warnings because coming from us, you know… And then when something happens…
Read yourself.
I ow nothing to anyone but God, my family who raised me after my parents died, the head of my family who’s orders I obey, my wives and children, and myself.
I’m can hardly be trying to get away from something that isn’t my responsiblity. It is the West who started to write and scream “Islamic” terrorists, not me. So it is the responsibility of those who constantly repeat this to correct themselves.
I have no objections to the use of the word “terrorist” for people who killed one of my friends along with thousands of others in the WTC. To give one example.
I do have objections of the link that is constantly made with my religion since there is none.
You should try to read my posts here instead of waisting energy in “getting more angry”. Try to grasp what I mean.
Actually, you come now on my field as I am buzy with research on the very issue, be it that is goes over the socio/economical impact on both the European and Western societies.
The fact is that these events aren’t “alive” in the Islamic world. They are influencing the interactions between that particular region and the West until this very day.
And of course those crusaders can hardly be called Christians or do you have an other opinion. The fact however remains that they were instigated to do these crimes by their Popes.
Until this very day the Pope has for those brands of Christianity the supreme authority.
Sorry to disagree: I have no responsibility on what any journalist writes or what any editor wants to permit.
It is the task and obligation of every journalist worth the name journalist to get informed before typing one single letter, on no matter which issue he wants to give report.
It is not my task to call all the journalists on the globe to inform them.
And yes, they should write: “terrorists who claim to act in the name of Islam.” Some of them even do that, which is completely honest reporting of facts, which gets my respect.
Cheap lazy uninformed biased sensationalists claiming to be journalists but only out on easy gained $$$$ on the back of my religion don’t get any grain of my respect. They are pulp writers, pulp reporters, pulp media degrading the profession with every word they write or speak and with every cheap mass influencing rethoric they spout.
People addicted to such forms of uninformed biased cheap sensationalism, which is for them the only form of information they are willing to absorb, can’t count on respect coming from my side either.
I feel however no call to start my own news channel and written media group in order to inform the unwilling lazy masses.
When I’m in need of something enerving like that in order to keep me feeling alive, I’ll let you know.
OK. 60 people is about 5 dozens. (I’m hopeless in calculating, being hopeless dyslexic, even on numbers)
I didn’t refer to the numbers of people, although the USA government most cynically criminal stated that the casualties among Iraqis are “not counted” = read: are irrelevant = worhtless because they are only Iraqis who were bound to be killed anyway.
I referred to the impact of only one single bomb of a few hundred tons, multiplied by thousands and thousands tons of such innocent explosives, dropped in an unending serial during days and nights in a row.
Care to reflect on the horror of that in comparison with those sky skrapers coming down?
How do you think it would be if your hometown would be bombed in such a constant never ending raid? I guess you would see that as completely innocent and harmless while getting deaf and deafer with every new impact and while seeing your family burning like torches while your whole neighbourhood gets flattened in only one such an attack?
Right.
Salaam. A
martin_ibn_martin:
> Consider him vehemently denounced. Enough said
Conceded.
> Badshah Khan […]
Very interesting! I have ordered it from Amazon and very much look forward to reading it. I find it a thing of supreme sadness that more than 70 years after this great man of Islam started his work; for many it still comes as a surprise to hear of Muslims that subscribe to a creed of non-violence – even one inspired by the concept of Jihad (and that his story should be found on a site dedicated to forgotten history).
“There is no- thing surprising in a Muslim or a Pathan like me subscribing to the creed of non-violence.” He was an ally of Gandhi and once persuaded 100,000 of his countrymen to lay down their arms and vow to fight nonviolently. His profound belief in non-violence came from the depths of his experience and his belief that these principles lay at the heart of Islam.
Khan and Gandhi worked hand in hand using the tactic of non- violence to free their land from British oppression. Khan opened schools and brought women out of their homes to become a part of society. For over two decades Khan and his followers dominated the Northwest Frontier without resorting to violence as a means for independence. “
http://taint.org/2001/12/12/003505a_mail.html
http://www.peacehost.net/PacifistNation/khan.htm
Rune
Here you opened up a bit, which is good. You need to do more of that. Sorry to say, the rest I find “same old”. Nobody can impose any responsibility on you, sure. I only said IF you want to defend Islam, which I thought was your intention, you need to do a lot more.
NewI
Islam is a religion that happens to be the one I follow and Islam and its history is also one of the subjects I choosed to make my studyfield.
Of course it is amusing when people jump on that part of my personal background to write the greatest nonsense on whatever post I make, tearing things they perceive “Islamic” or related even into discussions who have no other connection to Islam then the fact that I’m present on the message board.
I’m not on a message board to “open a bit” (and it isn’t even clear to me what you might mean by this expression).
I’m also not here to defend Islam.
Why should I feel the need to defend Islam, let be do this undercover on a message board? Against what or who?
If you have the impression that I opened this topic with this intention, you got it wrong.
I opened it to see how people react when they hear the word Islam and to explore together with them how they come to their impressions.
If explanation is needed because they are led by wathever cause to have a wrong or incomplete view on certain things then I give that.
This however has nothing to do with any wish to “defend” which demands and implicates a situation of hostility to begin with.
Salaam. A
i know Islam culture is brilliant and i like their architecture…so beautiful…
anastasis
As a typical TV-gorged American, the first thing that comes to mind is “prison.”
The second is “X.”
Sorry, but that was my mum… And I don’t alwas agree with her so I don’t submit to her.
Opps I forgot the immage… rubble.
can you please provide me with a (translated of course) version of the definition of ‘enemies of their faith’?
And how does this differ from ‘enemies of their land’ as most civilized (oopps, sorry… other) religions would see it?