NM.
:dubious: Sounds like you’re saying that nobody should be doing anything to spread democracy in the Middle East because they’re not ready for democracy and probably never will be. Am I reading you wrong?
We’re getting off topic here. The subject is the future of relations between Israel and Egypt, not U.S. foreign policy, Islam, or democracy in the Middle East in general except in the context of Egyptian-Israeli relations.
I’m not sure why he feels that way since, according to him, Middle Easterners are “white” and therefore, presumably part of the master race.
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Sorry Marley.
I was typing up my post while you were posting this.
Racial slurs are racial slurs.
Spic is short for hispanic and nigger comes from negro, but that hardly makes them acceptable to use unless one is doing so to make a point.
I’ll also be honest and say I find it rather dubious that someone from India was unaware that the term “Paki” was a racial slur.
That strikes me as being about as plausible as claiming that someone from Texas was unaware that “spic” was a racial slur not just a shorthand way of saying “hispanic.”
I remember a few years ago reading that Prince Harry was sent to an army racial/diversity awareness course after referring to someone as a “Paki”
Paki is certainly considered a racial slur in the UK.
In Harry’s case, he clearly didn’t show any animosity and clearly thought of the man as his friend and I don’t think he was anymore racist than the average person, however that doesn’t mean that it’s not a racial slur anymore than the fact that some white people used to talk affectionately about “our niggers” meant that nigger isn’t a racial slur.
Similarly, Jesse Jackson most certainly wasn’t an anti-Semite, but that didn’t mean that referring to New York City as “hymietown” wasn’t a racial(or ethnic for the pedants) slur.
Also, I don’t think Prince Harry had to go to any racial/diversity awareness type course(that’s more an American thing), though he was forced to apologize and it was clearly embarrassing for him.
Marley has already instructed everyone to stay on topic for the thread.
There will be no more discussion of whther or not paki is an insult in this thread.
[ /Moderating ]
You’re right.
I really shouldn’t have continued, but convinced myself that since Marley hadn’t specifically mentioned the “paki” phrase I could do so without violating the rules.
That was obnoxious and disrespectful to Marley so let me apologize to him and the rest.
My only defense is that “Paki” is used not only against “Pakistanis” but just about all South Asian Muslims, including my father, who heard it on multiple occasions in the UK, so to me seeing a poster casually referring to a “paki” is somewhat like a black poster reading another poster referring to “niggers”.
Also, with all due respect, saying “there will be no discussion over whether or not paki is an insult” is like saying “there will be no discussion over whether or not nigger is an insult” and to me reading someone question whether or not Paki is an insult is very much like a black or Jewish person reading someone question whether or not nigger or kike are insults.
“Paki” is just as much a racial slur and an insult as “nigger” is. It’s simply more common in the UK than in the US for very obvious reasons. Obviously many people argue that neither word is a racial slur and reasonable people could argue the case for paki being a racial slur and an insult is stronger than that of nigger since many blacks regularly refer to each other as niggers and do so affectionately while, by contrast, few if any “pakis” refer to each other as “pakis”. In fact, it’s very possible most uses of the term “nigger” in the US are not intended as insults while the same is very much not true regarding the term “Paki” in either the UK or India.
I recognize you meant no offense and I take none, but just as a black person would probably ask you to rephrase your post from “there will be no discussion over whether or not nigger is an insult” to “there will be no further discussion over the use of the term nigger” I’d request that you rephrase your post to “there will be no further discussion over the use of the term Paki.”
Anyway, back to the OP.
Morsi will make noises, but in the end Egypt needs the US aid so there will be some bellicose rhetoric to throw raw meat to the base, but there’s not going to be a dramatic change in the relationship between Israel and Egypt which was already, in the words of Benjamin Netanyahu “a cold peace.”
I am not saying they never will be ready for democracy. I am saying right now that the United States should not be promoting democracy over there. Democratic governments have more prestige than dictatorships. It is easier to oppose a dictatorship that is doing something horrible than it is to oppose a democracy that is doing the same thing with broad popular support.
At the same time I do not think we should be defending dictatorships against popular insurrections like we did during the Cold War. I think we should leave those countries alone.
I am firmly committed to the defense of Israel.
Especially if Egypt and Iran are really thinking about a rapprochement of some sort across the Sunni/Shi`a divide.
It seems that whenever anything happens to increase the potential influence of Iran in the MENA region, everybody involved bangs real hard on the anti-Israel drum to reinforce the notion of pan-Muslim “common ground” and defuse sectarian anxieties.
Hence Ahmedinajad’s anti-Israel and antisemitic dick-waving when people started to notice a few years into the second Gulf War that Iran was now a major player in Iraqi politics.
When you talk about “leaving Egypt alone” does that mean that you think the US shouldn’t have been giving Egypt 1.5 billion dollars a year(more foreign aid than is given to any nation other than Israel) since the Camp David agreements under Carter which is what propped up the Mubarak government and preserved the peace between Egypt and Israel?
I will say that I think that US had national security interests in insuring peace between Egypt and Israel and that this was something good for the world, the Middle East, and, for that matter, the Palestinians.
Please explain why do you think the AID was a bad thing or why you think giving a country 1.5 billion dollars in aid is “leaving it alone.”
Agreed.
The only thing I’ll add is that I think many in the West misunderstand the Sunni/Shi’a divide".
There a number of countries where it’s an issue(I.E. Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and a few others) but in Sunni countries with no significant number of Sunnis, such as Egypt, it’s not an issue to anyone but the Salafists.
Khomeini was actually quite popular and still is quite popular(though posthumouslyl) in much of the Sunni Arab world.
You’ll notice that Hamas and Hezbollah, despite one group being Shia and the other Sunni are allies with no significant issues.
I don’t think Morsi’s promise to get Omar Abdel-Rahman released is going to play well in Israel. Or the United States. Or anywhere outside of Morsi’s base, really. Rahman is serving a life sentence for ties to Al Qaeda and plotting terrorist attacks in the aftermath of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
It certainly won’t, but that’s a promise for domestic consumption not foreign consumption.
Moreover, it’s also his way of giving th
Well, to be honest, I don’t think the Israelis would give a shit about him because he was more concerned with killing Muslims he didn’t like than killing Jews.
Moreover, those statements are for domestic consumption not foreign.
Similarly every American President when running for election promises to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem, but none ever do.
Beyond that demanding to free the Blind Sheikh is his way of giving the finger to the Mubarak supporters since the Sheikh was widely believed to be involved with the killing of Sadat.
Oops, sorry for the double post. Would one of the mods mind deleting the first.