What is the greatest human cruelty?

When I said ‘How far back would the accusation go.’ I meant: who are we looking to place blame on the cruelty of coerced “life”? Our parents? Our grandparents? The chain goes all the way back to the first spark of life, however it began. I was trying to make the point that life created itself. There is no one with whom to place the blame. We can choose to stop procreating based on philosophy, but to ignore that the desire to have children is largely instinctual is to overlook your (and others) humanity.

When I said that awareness is the universe’s way of appreciating itself, I was merely trying to put a seemingly contradictory notion into plain english. Of course the universe is an indifferent entity. But we are not. How is this so? WHY is there something rather than nothing, when an indifferent, unaware universe came into existence before we did? Like Liberal said, thinking about it becomes circular.

Believe it or not, I see your point. An indifferent universe begat life that is aware of itself. This life endures cruelty upon agonizing cruelty, ad infinitum. Why continue? Why go on with this pointless agony? How could you think about passing this horrible birthright onto yet another conscience soul? It’s your prerogative to decide that. But to assume that for the rest of humanity is an arrogant stance. For a lot of us (yes, i know, you hate that word) the desire to keep on living is very strong. You might say it’s the fear of death (the unknown). I say it’s the fear of non-existance (for me, a rather knowable experience… just like it was before i was born). Now that I’m here, I’m extremely grateful. I try and relish the experience as much as possible. In all this talk of cruelty, we forget about pleasure. Merely existing is pleasure enough. Perhaps the greatest cruelty of all is the apprehension and anticipation of our impending non-existence. But to place that cruelty on the shoulders of procreation is to misappropriate the issue. Knowing that I won’t exist after I die, maybe I can take some peace in that. I’m simply going back to whence I came.

Also, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. There are ways to minimize our perceived cruelty. It could be that it’s merely an “engineering” problem. Maybe someday humanity will conquer. Don’t tell me when enough is enough. It’s still too early (if ever) to tell.

As for the implication that you didn’t believe any of us were seriously thinking the matter over, maybe I was too quick to judge your true intentions when you said, “What do you THINK”. I realize it was in response to posts that were egging the matter a bit. To me, I felt that by that point in the thread, the true intentions for this debate was not to argue what seemed the ‘greatest human cruelty’, but rather to discuss whether or not humanity deserves to continue.

Of course I meant conscious soul.

Hey, I truly appreciate the time and effort and effort you put into this post, and as such I really hate to blow the whole thing out of the water in one stroke, but I think we have already established that, human cruelty only exists when there are humans around and about. No humans, no humans burnings humans at the stake. Period. End of story.

But on we go, just the same, to this quote:

Human potential is all well and fine to imagine, just as we imagine that there might be a God, or pigs with wings. Human behavior, however, speaks to the reality of the situation, and does so with unwelcome familiarity every moment of every day.

Nyaaaannnnnd what about ‘em? Let’s see!

Gotta disagree with you here. Plenty of people wish that they could have “done it” a long time ago, perhaps especially those now in their 40’s. And once one has tasted of Major Depression, anything resembling a full recovery simply doesn’t happen. It just doesn’t. Once one knows, one knows, and there’s no going back.

My contention is that any amount of “dying painfully” negates any amount of “meaningful life“ under any and all circumstances. No people, no painful people deaths.

I don’t underestimate THAT capacity at all. That capacity accounts for why most of us remain here at all. People also derive something they call “pleasure“ from being beaten until they bleed, from piercing and tattooing the flesh that their own hatred for themselves and their lives compels them to do, from ripping their anal sphincters to shreds by using them as entrances rather than the exits they were designed to be, etc.

The human organism craves stimulation. Pain is better than nothing at all, and eventually becomes mistaken for pleasure.

I’d agree with you on the latter, but not the former.
And what’s with this Dr. PoopiePants moniker? Are you making fun of me?

Which does nothing at all to disprove what the good doctor was saying. That human life can be miserable does not mean that it is always miserable. Since miserableness is not the inevitable outcome of human exsistence, it’s not logical to pin the blame for miserableness on the creation of human life: the causitive factor occurs some point afterwards.

At no point in this thread have you been discussing “the reality of the situation.” You’ve been focusing solely on the most extremely negative aspects of the human condition, but the reality is that exsistance is composed of both positive and negative aspects. You cannot adress the nature of human exsistance accurately so long as you continue to ignore its totality.

Nobody ever recovers from major depression?! I gotta see a cite for this one. I’m pretty certain you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about. After all, you yourself have never been depressed for more than ten minutes in your entire life, right?

The values you are assigning to life and death are entirely arbitrary: they only have meaning to you. Just because you’re so terrified of dying badly that you’d rather never have exsisted at all does not mean that every human on Earth suffers from similar cowardice. A bad death is a small price to pay for a good life, as far as most of us are concerned.

Wait a minute, anyone who gets a tattoo or has anal sex is expressing self loathing? Where the hell do you get this stuff from? And who, precisely, “designed” the anal sphincter?

I thought your entire thesis here was that “nothing at all” was better than pain? Isn’t that what you’ve been saying, here? That it would be better to not exsist at all than to have to suffer the unending torment that is human exsistence? It’s clear you haven’t thought this concept through at all.

Paranoid much?

I feel that this way of thinking goes hand in hand with the idea that we are only aware of the here and now. The present. Past & future are only illusions. So, to die a painful death would be THE last thing we experience as conscious beings… which in turn would make any pleasure we felt throughout the course of our lives irrelevant and meaningless. If this is how the OP feels, it’s a hard argument to disagree with. Although, by the same logic, then you are obsessing about the “future” event of death, and not enjoying the “real” here and now. Who’s to say that your individual death will be painful or agonizing? Maybe it’ll be euphoric or perhaps you won’t even know it’s happening. Your last conscious experience could very well be pleasant. I’m not saying that this is how drmark2000 feels, just wanted to add something that has crossed my mind before, and the above remark jostled it loose.