What is the opposite of feminism?

The BBQ Pit
61

I see Doors has a sense of inadequacy problem. No surprise there.

Hmm, I guess among the stupid, actually knowing what one is talking about and having actual facts is considered bad form.

Leaving aside the strange illogic of the above statement in which you complain about comparisions while comparing, I don’t see the relevance.

As you like.

No, I didn’t ask for one either dimwit, now did I? Do reread, perhaps more slowly this time. They’re not really necessary, given your factually unfounded complaints. All I see is more whinging from the folks self-esteem problems blaming the outside world against all objective, factual evidence.

Your whinging about quotas – what fucking quotas? Private sector companies, again more urban legends for the inadequate-- is unfounded in fact. You assert the most qualified people don’t get the jobs.

I suggest that any application of logic would show these objections to be at best foolish.(*) I would presume to see substantial declines in white employment, rise in black employment for example to be able to conclude some kind of actual discrimination. Nothing in the aggregate numbers leads me to such a conclusion – nor in my personal experience for that matter. Conclusion, overblown whining. Your diminished possibilities are your own damn fault – to the extent this is not all in your fucking head. To be blunt, if you are a white male loser, you’re on your own dime or for reasons not associated with white maleness (e.g. being poorly educated, wrong sector etc.).

(*: Of course this leaves aside the degree to which merit fully drives hiring or firing. Being responsible for such things, I can say I only make best guesses. Further, from what I have seen, the old (white) boy network supplies much more mediocrity than any affirmative action program. I’m bloody glad lawsuits have opened up the halls to more talent (female, non-WASP) excluded previously a priori by morons.)

Oh, how very special.

Let me try to parse this:
(a) world, revolves around: I translate this as poster feels inadequate.
(b) Replies, prissy. I assume we can translate this to mean, replies, logical and factually founded. Facts uncomfortable for belief system, cognitive dissonance leads the insecure to lash out.
© not unreasonable opinion (like mine …), torn apart. I believe we can translate this for assertions based on illogic and/or factually unfounded critiqued and demolished. I treat with respect any arguments worthy of the name. I’m guessing that you’re peeved at my taking apart of your gun control thread posting. Tough shit. You post idiotic crap, I call you on it. Next time think before posting or pay better attention to the actual thread.

Hmmm, what’s real work? In any case, given that I live and work in the third world and get a nice dose of exposure now and again to diseases which would curl your little toesies, the following, well, makes me laugh:

So, how many stupid stereotypes have you packed into your dense little noggin? (for the record, I hate golf, but that’s another matter entirely)

Now, now, class hatred is officially pinko territory in the good old U.S of A, isn’t it?
In re reparations: I called him an asshole for raising an issue in an obvious fuck you manner. Dismissive and gratitious. Moreover, my objections or rather reservations on reparations derive from wholly different ones that, given the doors comments in general, can be inferred to him.

62

Are you really, really this stupid? I will use little words so that you may un-der-stand me better.

I was trying to see why it was that you de-ci-ded to start calling me names. I was trying to give you the be-ni-fit of doubt and see if there was something I said to start you off on your ob-ses-sive attacks on me.

I now that there is no ra-tion-al reason. You are just a stupid ass-hole. You can con-tin-ue the attacks if you wish, but I don not talk to overly agg-res-sive fucknuts.

If you still do not un-der-stand, you may usethis site to look up the words you don’t know.

63

hmmm.
Star-ted call-ing her names?
I wonder if she even read where I po-int-ed out who brough-t out the name-s first.
I won-der-if she ev-en has a cl-ue who star-ted with per-son-al poo-p firs-t.
I would laugh at her def-i-ni-tion of ra-tion-al, but I am too dis-gus-ted.
I think I have no p-lace here. I like it where words mean what they have since I was lit-tle.

64

BG: The person in question seems to be undergoing a bit of a meltdown in two simultaneous pit threads. Ascribe it to a disorder and ignore.

65

pl- your post was so beautiful- doing the thing you are calling me.
you like definitions, perhaps you should get a dicktionary, look up whiny-ass little bitch, re read what I’ve written and responded to, then hang your self from the shame.

66

Oh gee! Well, the next time you big poor repressed White hetero men get raped, called a slut for having sex, have a baby, etc etc…be sure and call me.

Until then, bite me.

67

I don’t think that official affirmative action hurts white males as much as unofficial corporate affirmative action. I’ve seen it a lot over the years. I can’t weigh in on how it effects hiring practices since I’m not an HR person and I don’t get to compare the applications my various coworkers turned in originally, but everyone can see how it effects firing practices. Basically, if you are a minority, you have to screw up a LOT worse to get fired. Management is scared to let people of certain races go because there is a good chance that the fired person will go find a lawyer and sue the company. Then, not only does the corporation have to pay some settlement to shut them up, the person who recommended the firing is put under the light to see if they really are a racist, and if maybe there is some other reason they can be let go even if there isn’t any evidence of them being prejudiced. This results in jobs being taken up by people who shouldn’t have them, and everybody having to work harder to cover for them. This isn’t just in cases where quality of work is being judged (in such cases my perceptions COULD be colored, maybe I would think that some people were doing a better job than they were), but where strict company guidelines are being ignored in some cases. As an example, you might have a rule where if you don’t come in to work and didn’t call in ahead of time once, you get a warning, and if you did it again you were automatically terminated. I’ve known a lot of people to get fired over this, and they were all white. I also know a black guy who has done this at least a half-dozen times, and his boss comes by and talks to him about his attendance, and tells him he needs to work harder on at least calling in on time, when he would have been fired months ago if he were white.

It’s not an official form of discrimination, it’s just a natural reaction to our litigious society and an easily abused legal system, management is human and they know who they can’t fire without risking their own jobs, and the corporation is willing to keep bad workers on the payroll to avoid an expensive lawsuit. It hurts everybody looking for jobs because there aren’t enough openings for entry-level workers because of the stagnation this fear of lawsuits causes.

68

anyone mind if I pop back in?

I have to reiterate, I was not whining in my original post and I apologize if it came off like that. To say that I am whining that things aren’t like the good ol’ days, when I had all the advantages and oppressed all others and reigned from high on the Mount, is ludicrous. What good ol’ days? when I was 4? Why, because of my skin color and gender am I not allowed to feel as others feel? If I were black would everyone be calling me a whiner? Perhaps I could give you a bit of background, not enough to bore all of you, just a quick history of a few events. These are facts.

  1. I have been discriminated against because of my skin color.

  2. I have been assaulted and had the shit kicked out of me because of my color.

  3. I have had racial slurs yelled at me while walking down the street.

  4. I have been harrassed by police my whole life.

  5. I have been turned down for assistance with my child because it is a stictly “Single MOTHERS” program

AGAIN- I am not whining I am simply stating that the only reason that this is not considered discrimination is because I am a white male.

If I were a black woman making the same claims the reactions to this post would be much different. I am also not claiming that my situation is hopeless, I have no doubt that I will make it, eventually, in whatever feild I choose, on my own merits. I am just trying to bring some light to the false stereotype that all white males have some plowed path to the top. I also realise that many, many people have it worse than I do, and I am greatful for what I do have.

69

Guin…ok lets talk.

A couple of years ago I was at a party and admittedly I had to much to drink, through out the course of the evening a certain lady was following me around trying to get me alone, I told her repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that I was not interested. She persisted. After awhile she got me cornered in a laundry room and started groping me, laughing as it were seduction rather than psychotic, I told her NO and demanded that she leave me alone. Later that evening after I had gone to sleep, (passed out perhaps) I was awakened to find this girl “riding me”
Now was this my own fault? Was this consentual? Was I asking for it?

Although I have never been called a “slut” exactly, I have had experiences where I was with a girl and suddenly all of her friends knew about it, in detail, and somehow thought that I would then put out for them because of it.

And I am not even going to apologize for not being able to bear children, but I was by the mother of my childs side the entire nine months, and in the delivery room, I wept at the thought of something going wrong, and endured nurses acting as if I were an annoyance and obsical rather than a deserving participant. I am in no way comparing my experience to that of a woman bearing a child, but I refuse to apologize for being born with a penis.
now, can we talk rationally?

70

Collounsbury…

Why is it all about relevance to you? Don’t you have a single thought of your own? Do you have to look up stuff just to know how you feel about things? You don’t need evidence to explain your emotions. Say what you think every once in a while instead of just looking it up.

Really, man, loosen up. Have a good time. I feel better today than I did yesterday. How about you?

Anyhow, back to the topic. I’ll retract some of the more hostile things I said. I was feeling kinda frustrated yesterday and I may have taken my comments too far. Collounsbury and Biggirl, I feel like I owe you an apology.

Sorry :o .

However, my thoughts and opinions stand.

Yes, I was having a pity party for myself. Yes, I do feel inadequate sometimes. Yes, I do feel cheated, like I’m getting the shaft for no particular reason.

Woe is me :frowning: .

I can’t help the way I feel.

I just want everyone to understand, though, that I think affirmative action is wrong. Sorry. I think that stuff should be based on merit, not quota. Performance, not skin color. Ability, not sex. If that makes me an asshole, well, what can I say?

Think on this, though. What minorities once considered oppression and discrimination is now being applied to white males. Hiring limits, qualifications, performance.

Discrimination comes in many forms, folks. Some are just not as obvious as others.

I think I’ll bow out now, as gracefully as I can, considering how I got creamed by you guys. See ya at the next controversial hot-button topic :smiley: .

71

First, let me say that since Doors has gracefully apologized, which takes some character, I will do the same. Reactive cruelty is nonetheless cruel.

That aside:

I have lots of thoughts of my own, and would go so far as to say my analyses have roots in my general approach to life, ergo they come from me. However, I’m very aware of how feelings and gut reactions often lead to distortion. Seeking to base my opinions as much as possible on rationally considered data is, in my opinion, the best way to avoid error.

Evidence confirms whether one is wrong or not and helps avoid false claims. I sure as hell grew up feeling blacks were different. Evidence has corrected this misapprehension. As rigorous as possible attention to evidence. Look at your claims so far, very few of which hold up to factual examination. This should lead you to question your feelings.

No, the pollution here in Cairo is terrible today. Nasty fucking weather right now. Makes me paranoid, me being a closet hypochondriac, about long term health. Ah, but this is a bit irrelevant.

Affirmative action as the law stands merely requires non-discriminatory consideration of qualifications. That’s actual, factual affirmative action. Affirmative action as it stands in urban mythology is another matter.

Sure, they should. Since there are not legal quotas, your complaint is somewhat irrelevant.

The question then becomes to what extent life is actually merit based. A difficult question to answer as merit is subjective rather like intelligence. One of the first things I discovered when I first got into the hiring end of the hiring process.

Realizing this, the question becomes to what extent can we exclude discriminatory practices in hiring based around the fuzzy idea of merit? Where does discrimination actually tend to happen?

What makes one an asshole is not looking at the data and asking to what extent these feelings are not (a) sour grapes and responsiblity shifting (b) backed up by objective data rather than subjective data or even rumor.

Perfomance: Often difficult to objectively evaluate. Not impossible, of course and this depends on the field. Nonetheless the performance evaluation process is filled with subjectivity.

Mythology, urban legends.
(a) Please show some objective evidence of “oppression” towards white males in re hiring limits (they are illegal and an actionable cause to my knowledge), qualifications, perfomance.
(b) please balance any objective evidence for (a) against objective evidence of continued discrimination against minorities. Put complaints about WM ‘discrimination’ in this context.

Quite right, now apply that to the real world data for minorities:
(a) WM earn more than other groups, controlled for diff. in education etc.
(b) Are, like myself, disproportionately represented in leadership/management positions, again even when controlling for diff. in education.
© generally appear to have superior and differential access to health care, etc.
(d) Given many studies, seem to have superior and differential access to such services as advantageous pricing in many markets, e.g. housing, loans.

Now, in light of this, where are we?

In re Badtz comments on informal corp discrim, I have the following observations:

In re data, if the issue you describe were a large scale one (I am sure there is some factual kernal to this) should be not see a larger representation of non-WMs in the work force?

Second, I question to what extent the invidious idea of blacks being inferior and “unqualified” informs much of this debate, consciously or unconsciously. My personal experience has suggested to me, and this seems to run in concordance with the larger data showing continued discrimination throughout society, that this remains a disturbingly prevalent question. Moreover the extent to which an incomptentant black man becomes a race issue while a idiot bubba hired bec. he belonged to the same frat as one of the managers raises questions in my mind as to how the whole issue is framed.

All in all, the entire debate suffers from much illogic and poorly concieved analysis all around.

72

Touche.

73

By the way, I want to be clear:

(a) I do think think there is a nasty vien of White Male Bashing out there which is not fully justified and has some really disturbing characteristics. I just view it as fairly marginal, so far, in real results. However it should be fought with due vigor, while at the same time not denying continued discrim by guys who look like me. Balance.

(b) I rather suspect that most bad stuff happening to WMs outside of the professional class is more of a class issue than due to ‘discrimination’: as a member of the professional class (slightly tongue in cheek here) I don’t fool myself into thinking that we don’t have some … not fully justified advantages in re influencing policy and the like.

But to look at this we need to look at US econ. structure and the like.

74

Skarecrow , then I appologize. That girl had no right to do what she did. That was horrible indeed.

However, I think it’s more like some white males are telling women they now have it BETTER than white males, which is false.

75

If I may interject…

Speaking as a White Male™, I’ve encountered circumstances where my being my race and gender have hurt me (job interviews where I’ve been told that they can’t hire any white males due to gender and race inequalities), but I will say that as a general rule, other races (as well as women) have it overall much tougher than us WMs. Yes, there may be times where WMs are discriminated against, and there may be imperfect affirmative action quotas and programs out there. But let’s remember that it’s an effort to try to correct an inequality – it may not be perfect, but at least they’re TRYING. And also, the fact that we ARE middle-class WMs may blind us to what some people out there in society are experiencing. I don’t want to BELIEVE that affirmative action is necessary, because I don’t want to think that people exist in circumstances bad enough to warrant it. I’ve never lived in the projects or had to exist on welfare – but there are people out there who DO. I’ve never seen it myself, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and doesn’t need to be addressed.

Affirmative action is a (relatively) new concept, and I think that organizations are still trying to work out the bugs. Over time, I truly believe that affirmative action programs can work and will be effective - able to level the playing field without discriminating against ANY gender/race/whatever. Hopefully.

76

Well, from the purely selfish motivation of someone who’s white and male, and looking for a job, I’d like to see people who aren’t out of the labor market…but then, I’d also like to see everyone who isn’t me out of the labor market until I find a new job…it’ll improve my chances. :slight_smile:

Seriously, though, one of the things history seems to suggest is that a focus on racial “resentments” (i.e. Black people want to take my job) is counterproductive for both working class black people and working class white people. For example, back during the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s, there was a movement called the “populist” movement. The populists, mainly poor farmers, attempted to organize for fairer prices, debt reform, and other issues important to them. The populist movement was largest in the American Midwest and South. The midwestern populists were much more successful pushing their legislative agenda and interests than the southern ones. Why? One reason was because the southern populist movement was segregated, while the midwestern populists were integrated (such as it was…there weren’t many black people in the midwest). The midwestern populists were able to present a unified front against banks and railroads, while southern populists, for the most part, allowed racial fears (which were encouraged by the banks, railroads, and entrenched political forces) to keep them from actively moving…the white populists and black populists often spent more time arguing with each other than with those people antagonistic to their platform. Just something to think about.

77

A possible distillation:

“The problem with affirmative action is that as actually practiced, in zero-sum games where positions reserved for beneficiaries will inevitably result in fewer positions for non-beneficiaries, the losers tend to be working-class white males, rather than wealthy white males.”

I think that’s the root of most of the controversy.

I’m still chewing over the extent to which I think it may be true. My gut reaction is that it’s more true than a lot of people would care to admit.

For example, here in New York City there’s an exam required of police officers. I’m having trouble finding a cite (search engines are not being helpful at the moment) but IIRC on a 100-point test, there’s a 14-point differential between the minimum score required for black and Hispanic applicants, and that required for white applicants. That, of course, means that a white person with the same score as a black person may well not be hired.

Similarly, women are permitted a lower score on the physical tests.

These differentials are consititutional, but widely viewed as unfair, particularly by the white guys whose scores fall above those of AA beneficiaries, but below the minima for white applicants. The effect on me, a lawyer-member-of-the-ruling class? Zero. A, I’m not likely to take this exam in the first place. B, if I did, I’ve got the educational resources to blow it out of the water. Those resources are largely class-related: my father’s a ph.d. and my mother was a Latin teacher. I grew up in a home that quite literally was lined in books. We weren’t especially wealthy (Dad’s always worked from the government), but as an only child I lacked nothing important (and very little that wasn’t). Local public schools aren’t any good? Well then, off to private school. French lessons? Of course. Summer enrichment? No question. Computers? Hell, dad’s job depended on them, we had an Osborne in 1982. And of course we could afford to live in places where, much of the time, the public schools were just fine and the enrichment came included.

Let’s change the ground a little bit to something nearer and dearer to me: law-school admissions. By the time I sat for the LSAT, I’d taken the SSAT (private-high-school
version of the SAT) three times (we moved a lot), the PSAT once, and the SAT twice. These are advantages the working-class white person is unlikely to have. I didn’t bother with a review course, and came out with a score good enough for a top-ten law school. ('scuse me, I’ve disclocated my shoulder from all this effort patting myself on the back. There, much better.)

For me, it wasn’t very hard. Nerve-wracking, yeah, but hard? No. It was all pretty familiar.

Now then. Most private law schools engage in affirmative action, and rely almost exclusively on a nexus of LSAT scores and grades in determining admission. Nobody knows to what degree there’s a thumb on the LSAT scale. However, if the thumb is more than slight, the person who loses will not be the person like me - with the resources that it won’t matter. It’ll be the person who’s a little more marginal. Who’s got high scores, but not quite high enough, and they’ve graduated from a state school. Etc.

I should caution: in law school I didn’t see any evidence that Latino or African-American students were “less qualified” than white students. As a matter of fact, the only student I remember who really seemed out of her league was a “legacy,” a bit of affirmative-action that damages all qualified people regardless of race or gender.

And that supports my point. Affirmative action won’t affect me, and won’t affect her, because we’re protected anyway.

I don’t know what to suggest as a replacement, other than an acknowledgment that places class as a category that must be considered. Look at the folks’ histories: did their parents graduate from college? Etc. And we need to stop assuming that race alone is that great an advantage.

78

Just to clarify…

Klunk-

I was talking about poor white males, not middle class.

79

It’s always something.

Poor white guys are held down by affirmative action.
Poor black guys are oppressed by the man.
Women can’t get past the old boy network
Although all these things may be true to some degree on a societal level, each individual is still responsible for his or her own life. Shit happens. Sometimes bad shit happens. But poor white guys can get jobs. Poor black guys can get them too. Women are no longer automatically disqualified from holding most any position that they want.

Everyone runs into trouble reaching their goals and it’s easy to lay blame. Easier than accepting the fact that the other person was better than you, or that manager just liked the way the other person spoke. You know, most of the time it’s not that the world is out to get you. There is truth to the cliche that life is not fair.

You will not get all the breaks. Most everything people want out of life are things that are hard to get. Sometimes impossible. It’s not always somebody’s fault.

80

Biggirl -
Yes. Beautiful. You made your point masterfully, and I whole heartedly agree, I also thank you for not making useless slams, rather, just making your point. I do though respectfully disagree with your statement about women not being able to get past the good ol boy network, but perhaps we should just swap locals. I would like to thank everyone that added to this post, I was told that I posted it in the wrong forum, and if so I apologize. I think that everyone that has posted thus far has had at least a valid point or two.