You sure that wasn’t the Jewish folks mural? Technicly white, I suppose…
No. It didn’t originate in the UK so it would be viewed as an American art form.
Unless it’s a Northern Spotted Peckerwood, AKA a Canadian.
Yes, it was created by a specific subset of Americans. The fact that a different subset of Americans, and people of other nationalities have fallen in love with the blues doesn’t mean it loses its spot as a part of black culture. Lots of non-southern Americans love southern rock. That doesn’t mean that it’s not part of Southern American culture anymore.
Your quote about thanksgiving got me to thinking. In Canada, we celebrate Thanksgiving on the second Monday in October (what you call Columbus day). Makes a lot more sense to have a long weekend than a Thursday (who the HELL decided on a Thursday?). I have lots of American friends (white) who come up to celebrate with me.
Another interesting phenomenon is cultural diffusion. Take Halloween in Canada. When I was a kid growing up in mainly Anglohone Ottawa in the 50s, it was of course a High Holy Day for us kids. But only 100 km away in the Province of Quebec, my Francophone cousins had never heard of it!
Today, 40 years later, Hloween has “diffused” to Quebec to the point where Quebec is one of the biggest celebrators of Haloween in North America. Aduls, kids, everybody gets into it. Some people decorate two weeks before!
Go figure. I think cultures tend to mix and diffuse so much. That is why you would have trouble defining a “white” culture.
Abraham Lincoln
I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. Your original response to me was:
Some people from the UK listen to the blues too. Does that make it any less American?
My argument is that there is no “white” American culture. There is no litmus test beyond that of “American”. The Blues are part of American culture. The origin is predominately African American. Not sure what we’re discussing here.
Well, my argument is that there is a white American culture, and a black American culture, and Southern American culture and lots of different ____ American cultures, that are all subsets of American culture in general. No one is saying that these cultures haven’t blended, and don’t overlap. If we can decide that the blues is part of American culture because it origininated in America, then why can’t we break it down a little more, and look at which Americans it originated with, then call it part of the culture of the people who made it in the first place?
The purpose of the UK tangent was that the blues doesn’t stop being part of the American culture because non Americans like it, and it doesn’t stop being part of the black American culture because white people like it.
You are arguing that there is a white American culture, can you please explain to me what it is. So far the only thing I’m getting from people who argue this position is what white culture is not. Please explain to me what it is.
After everthing you’ve said you still can’t define White American culture. The road to the Blues will always lead to African Americans. It’s not mutually exclusive of American heritage and it has nothing to do with the UK.
Of course the blues aren’t mutually exclusive of American culture. Black American culture is a part of American culture by definition. I’m not aware of any definition that says a custom must be mutually exclusive of a group to be a part of that group’s culture.
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Could you give some examples of what you’d consider to be black culture?
As **Giles ** said, we Americans are all living in white American culture right now, for the most part. As I said before, the holiday traditions that most Americans have adopted are part of white American culture. You with the face gave some good examples that I’d also agree with. Country and Alternative rock music are part of wA culture in the same way that black American culture includes Hip Hop and Jazz. You’re not going to have a neat definition of any culture, black or white in my opinion.
I already did (the Blues). I’m not going to get into a semantic discussion on what African Americans consider their cultural pedigree. It’s already a given that it exists and is not the focus of the discussion.
Biggirl, I live in NYC and I don’t see a “white” culture at all. In fact, I don’t know anyone who would identify themselves as white- they identify as Jewish, Irish, Italian, German, Polish ,etc , or some combination. Truth is, I don’t see a single black culture either. I suspect that both have very much to do with living in NY, and that if I lived in the Midwest, my experience would be different.
Someone mentioned the side dishes at Thanksgiving as showing a difference between white culture and black culture, and that might be a good way to determine a difference. But if it is, I’m sure not part of white culture. Our side dishes included yams, potatoes, stuffing and pasta. We sometimes had a pumpkin pie ( which maybe one person ate ) but always had cannoli and Italian cookies.
Actually, it’s not a given (see doreen’s post). When you brought up the blues in the beginning, you said that it’s a part of American culture, enjoyed by people of all races, with black origins. Someone brought up baseball as part of white culture, you disagreed, because some black people enjoy baseball. So, I assumed that you were saying that the Blues were not part of black culture, because it had been adopted by Americans of all races.
So to you, blues is part of American culture because Americans created it, and black culture because it was created by blacks for the most part. Country music is part of American culture because Americans made it, but not part of white culture even though it was created by whites for the most part because ____? I’m trying to see the differences between the two genres that would give the answer to that blank spot, but I just don’t.
Really? That’s interesting, because I don’t know any white people who are, say, three generations or more removed from their ancestral country who strongly identify with it. Both sets of my great grand parents came from Europe (one set from Germany, the other from the Netherlands) and I really don’t identify myself with either culture (I’m from Arkansas), and neither do my parents.
This is interesting. I think white culture is pretty conformist for the most part, but I wonder how much extra-curricular activities for kids is about competitiveness and how much it’s just about trying to give your kids the things they want (possibly overindulgence). I’m sure many parents are competitive, but just because your kid’s in ballet class doesn’t mean you’re in competition with your friends and neighbors.
Like I said, it’s probably got a lot to do with living in NYC. On the Italian side of my family, my grandparents were born here, on the Austrian side, my grandparents were born there. I grew up in a neighborhood that had German delis and Italians delis- and everything was different about them , from the food on the shelves to othe layout of the store. There were German and Italian language schools in the neighborhood and German and Italian social organizations.
OK, let’s try another tact:
77% of the white people surveyed said that they have a distinct culture that should be perserved. What I’m trying to get at is-- what is distinctive about White American culture that is not just plain old American culture? What is it that White culture is in danger of losing that calls for preservation?
It seems to me as if those who say that there is a White American culture would like to take the general culture of this country and brand it as White. Saying “mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving is white culture, while mac 'n cheese is not” sounds like complete poppycock to me (sorry monstro). It’s like the culture of subtraction. Whatever we have left over after we remove what makes Americans Americans is White culture.
I don’t think you’re going to be able to find pure white culture. I don’t think you’re going to find a pure example of black culture either. If someone is going to seperate out black culture from American culture based on things from the past, then you’ve got to do the same for white culture in my opinion. Or, you could just look at all ____ American culture as American culture in general*, and just leave off the blank.
The only people I see talking seriously about “white culture” are a handful of white supremacists and a sprinkling of black activists. There’s no relationship to the real world in either case.
My idea of “white culture” is vanilla yogurt. :dubious:
Well, since it can be argued (see Thomas Sowell’s Black Rednecks and White Liberals) that what is popularly regarded as “Black culture” in the popular mind is really just white Redneck culture from the South (which was brought over by the Scotch-Irish), then I don’t think it’s proper to think of white vs. black culture. There are a variety of cultures in the U.S. that have been mixing together for four hundred or so years. No ethnic group has a culture that hasn’t been heavily influenced by another. Futhermore, there is no such thing as a “white” ethnic group.