What is White Culture?

You’re trying to assign something that doesn’t exist. How to explain this in context… African Americans CLAIM the blues as part of a general claim to a subculture. There is no White American bandwagon claiming baseball. Any attempt to plant a flag on Caucasian Culture would be immediately met with racist derision. Imagine how Miss White America, White History Month or the White Entertainment Network would be received. It would look retarded if Neal Armstrong claimed the moon landing as a white accomplishment.

If I understand you correctly you’re trying to say there are demographic markers associated with White Americans. That’s true from a marketing standpoint but not a cultural standpoint. To say that Country Music is culturally white is different than saying white people claim it culturally. It has Appalachian roots but Appalachia would not be the cornerstone of white culture.

Yes, white American culture exists. In fact, the idea that any group of people doesn’t have a culture is almost incorrect by defenition. We like baseball, apple pie, Elvis Presley, cars, computers, and hot dogs. You can say “that isn’t a real culture”, but anyone who says that is really just trying to put down America by insulting our level of sophistication (as if the rest of the world is so much more sophisticated than us).

Your argument is confusing to me. Are you saying that whether something is an element of a group’s culture all rests on whether member’s of that group lay claim to it? Collectivism can only be ascribed to the Chinese culture only if Chinese people say that is? Maschismo is associated with traditional Latino culture only if Latinos say so? Thing is white people do claim certain things as part of their culture. Some of these people are commonly known as racist idiots, but believing in a white culture doesn’t necessarily require one to be racist.

Biggirl doesn’t agree with monstro’s Thanksgiving observation, but I don’t understand her objection. The kinds of food we eat most certainly are a marker for culture, so why would this not be a valid starting point for pointing out our differences? Do Latinos, as a group, have diets identical to the total population? I would be mighty surprised if they do. Latino friends (El Salvadorian)that I know eat stuff like empanadas and pinto bean dishes during holidays in addition to the common mainstays like turkey. No one else I know have those foods on the table during Thanksgiving. Blacks are the same way. We disproportionately eat collard greens and other staples during the holidays, even after accounting for class and regional difference. “Soul food” is not associated with black folks just out of coincidence. It’s not just associated with poor black folks, either.

Is there any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) which shows that whites exhibit group-level tendencies that make them different than other groups, even after class and regional differences are taken into account? I don’t know the answer to this question, but I don’t know why we have to reject it out of hand. The only legitimate reason for writing off the idea of a white culture, IMO, is due to “white” not qualifying as an ethnic group like other groups. African-Americans and other groups are defined more tightly as a result of geographical barriers and/or social circumstances that kept them separate from the greater society. Whites are not united in the same way and basically only have skin tone and continental background in common. But that alone doesn’t mean the idea is ludicrous.

I took a crack at it in post #28

I’ve always wondered what white American culture actually is. I frequently hear the phrase, “You’re so white!” from various friends, usually when I do/say something that doesn’t conform to Korean/Korean-American cultural norms. Funnily enough, it usually pops out in terms of food - when I say prefer having bagels or waffles for breakfast as opposed to having rice and seaweed soup. Other than that, it’s usually when I say something that doesn’t conform to Korean/Korean-American cultural standards that I’m called white, so again it’s defined by what it’s not rather than what it is. It’s interesting that not being Korean-American translates to being white, though.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s not a real culture, just that it’s American culture, and not white culture.

Magiver, I agree with the points that **you with the face ** made. Clearly, we do know that at least some white people out there feel that they have a culture. Even though they might not talk about it often because of racial issues, and becasue when your group’s culture has been adopted by the whole country, there’s really not much to band together and talk about. I think that whites claiming baseball makes as much (or as little) sense as blacks claiming the blues. Both things have been soaked up by all Americans as a whole, plus the blues doesn’t seem to be that popular among the majority of blacks anyway. Of course it’s not just about the blues, but I don’t think that blacks are really as connected, or that they have as much in common as some people seem to believe. Blacks as a group may be more connected than whites, but not by much. This is a off topic, but in my thinking, either both groups have a culture or neither do (or blacks have a rapidly shrinking culture), since there’s been so much swapping of ideas over the years.

You often see the same thing amongst black people.

Yes, ownership must be accepted. I can’t speak for AA culture. If every black person on the planet loved watermellon I couldn’t say it was indicative of African American culture.

The error in this argument is that cultural traits are mutually exclusive. They are not.

I can’t think of any evidence to suggest there are White American traits that could be differentiated from American traits. It’s too broad a category.

It’s tends to be a rust belt phenomenon, but not exclusively. For example locally I can think of San Francisco’s slowly fading Irish population, especially the “Sunset Irish” in the Sunset district ( now predominately Asian ), which has been very root conscious ( I still remember the ethnic pride/excitement with which minor local palooka “Irish Pat” Lawlor was greeted in the late80’s/early 90’s - http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1798/irish-pat-lawlor-won-quit/ ). I also lived nest to a Portuguese Catholic church hall for several years and believe me, having gone through multiple festivals and processions ( with marching band ) every year, that’s one tightly-knit late 19th century immigrant community that still proudly identifies with “Portuguese-American.”

  • Tamerlane

The first thing that popped into my head upon pondering the term “white American culture” is NASCAR.

Culture, then, is what we do differently than other cultures, right? I’ve lived all over the US, and now I’m in Montana. In a capital city back east, 3/4 of my friends were black. Here, I think there’s one black guy in town.

I have an example of black culture, for contrast. Because of their kinky hair, they have to style it differently, so the young girls fall into the habit of picking, rolling, and braiding each others’ hair, often doing the same for the boys.

I’m glad someone finally brought up Elvis! I can only think of two… three rock bands fronted by blacks, King’s X, Living Colour, and Sevendust. Yes, rock was based on blues, rockin’ chair, soulful, toe-tapping blues. That white boy sped it up, made it easy (and fun) to dance to, and swiveled that pelvis right into our collective conscious.

One other thing I have to add, something terribly important that is missing from this discussion… and I just realized that it is another part of “white” culture. Class! The average cracker doesn’t even realize that we have a well established class hierarchy, aside from “rich”, middle class, and “poor”, usually lumping themselves in the lower category, because the Jones’ yard is always greener. I believe that there is a white culture in America, but that culture varies within different class groups, most of which the lower class is not even aware of.

All the other people who brought up ‘other’ cultures are missing the point. American white culture is the culture without a history. Ya, 200 years? Yes, black american culture does too, but they had previous culture to bring with them, and were easily distinguishable from all other cultures here. What happened to us European immigrants, is we all came here, the blacks are working on the farm (I’m taking a LOT of generalizations here, just bear with it), and my new Russian neighbor looks a lot more like my German uncle back home. Only one more generation later, and the kids never met their European relatives, they grew up together, and the blacks are still grouped off, doing the heavy labor.

As a white American, I have practically zero sense of my race. My whiteness is defined by not having a culture. That’s we we’re lumped in the category “white” in the first place. I have no sense of nationality, other than “American”, my race is so mixed, that I don’t even WANT to know (other than being a quarter native, what’s the luck to have TWO indian great-grandmothers). My oldest daughter lives on a nearby reservation, their whole family is tribal… and they’re “white”! You wouldn’t know except for their facial structure… I know because I see their doppelgangers ALL the time, what I call swimming in the gene pool. Most of the doubles have fairly dark skin. Lots of trailers on the rez.

The most multicultural place I’ve been is Hawai’i, where there is very little variation in the culture of races. There, you are either a tourist, or ‘long time resident’, easily distinguishable from a tourist by 1) your tan, and 2) the quality of your ‘aloha shirt’, because you’ve had the time to shop for the good stuff. Ironically, I have twin quadroon daughters there, with their mother, who is half latina. lol So if my ideas are stated crudely, I PROMISE that it is only to simplify explaination. But now I’m part of the problem! I’m diversifying not only my whiteness, but my twins’ culture as well. Thankfully, their culture will be “Hawai’ian American” now instead of some vague mulatto strangeness. I think I understand, now, why their mother never felt at home here, and wanted to move back there.

Oh shoot. I have to go write her now. Good luck, hope I sparked some neurons.

I read an essay by a Native American poet/anthropologist once. Wendy Rose said that many of the white people she talked to denied that they had a culture. She said, “Hmm, if it’s primarily white people who deny that they have a culture, and if very few people from other social groups deny that they have a culture, don’t you think that might be part of your culture?”

So I say that’s our starting point. Because of our country’s ignoble history of racism, identifying a white culture tends to be equated with white supremacy. White folks who don’t want that saddle distance themselves from it by denying that there’s a white culture. It’s part of our culture to do so.

It ties in to Hippy Hollow’s excellent post about individualism. Talking about a shared culture might seem to folks like the first step toward collectivism; it is therefore avoided within our culture.

Other traits:
-Music: folk, punk, heavy metal, and classical are all dominated by white people, and are part of a shared white culture, even if plenty of white folks don’t care for particular examples.
-Food: A lot of European-influenced cuisine qualifies here, I’d say. In the US, everyone eats everyone else’s food, so it’s a little more difficult to see, but I think it’s been mentioned already.
-Religion: I’m not an expert on this, but as I understand it, there are denominations of Protestantism dominated by white folks, just as some denominations are dominated by black folks.
-Politics: White folks tend more heavily toward economic conservatism than the country as a whole, IIRC; I’m not sure how we compare as a whole on social issues.
-Childrearing: I just read an interesting passage in a psychology textbook talking about how white parents often ask their children questions whose answer they know: “Taylro, what color is that car?” The child happily answers, “Yellow!” Black parents don’t do this as often. When white teachers ask black children such questions, they’ll often get a baffled look from the kid, who’s thinking, “Is Miss Johnson crazy? She can see the car just like I can!” and misinterpret those looks as insolence or stupidity.

Culture in the US is pretty fluid, but I think we can paint with a very broad brush, as long as we’re aware that’s what we’re doing.

[QUOTE=angryredplanet]

See I don’t know if the first part of this works. I believe that the slaves came from a variety of different tribes (correct me if I’m wrong), with a variety of different cultures. They weren’t allowed to pass those cultures on to their children, so most of it was lost.

I’m also surprised to hear people say that all the whites they know stop identifying with their ancestors’ countries after about three generations. I live near the Buffalo area, and the city still has it’s Polish section and Italian section. Rochester’s biggest robbery (the Brinks heist) took place because Americans who still felt ties to Ireland wanted to support the IRA. I always thought most cities had little sections set aside for different groups. Thanks for the Rust Belt info Tamerlane.

That’s pretty much how it was. A-A’s basically had to invent a new culture because their old ones were left behind. The only thing that united the first black Americans was their slave status and their race. Language, culture, tribal affiliation, all that got jumbled up.

Can I just say that I’ve never had Turnip Greens? I think that (at least in the pocket-Midwestern-White-culture) green beans are the more common veggie.

-Cem

Yeah, but, if it’s on a Thursday, we can argue that it’s silly to come back to work for one day after Thanksgiving. Then we get a four-day weekend, which is much better than a three-day weekend.

Wonder bread, light beer, hot dogs,soap operas,Carlin,Nascar

I started this post thinking that perhaps I cannot see White-American culture because I am soaking in it. I thought to have the term really mean anything other than American culture, you have to put a reigion in front of it. For example, in music, the crooner phenomenon (like in the 20’s) was fairly concentrated up north. In the south, white people generally listented to country. In the west, there is, well, western music. Likewise, there are food differences. Barbecue in the south is usually pork. In the west, you are gonna get served beef most of the time. Barbecue in the north is actually grilling, and only related to the others by name, and in the fact it is usually done outside. The food difference is still true, the music difference much less so.

But then I though of Elvis, and that he was pretty generically liked by white people, and for the most part ignored by black people. I know there are some fools out there listening to whatever the replacement of Britney Spears is this year. I am assuming it is being bought mostly by suburban white kids. So, there probably is a White-American culture, but I thnk that it is probably not more than 60 or so years old. The difference with Elvis is that he, and his successors were national stars, something that was really only possible here recently.

The problem with that thought is, it does not really seem deep and wide enough to be considered a cutlure.

That had better be corn bread dressing!

and, mmmmm ZZZ ZZZ Top…

Well, associating pop icons and TV shows with culture is problematic because of the role that racial bias plays.

Would whites have liked Elvis to the degree that they did had he been a black man? The guy became famous for doing things black folks had been doing for some time. Sensual dancing? Check. Bluesy crooning? Check. Rock music? Check. This stuff only seemed new to white folks because he was a white guy.

Britney Spears is popular because white teeny-bobbers identify with her. But her art (if you want to call it that) is nothing that hasn’t been done by a slew of black performers past and present. Paint Britney brown and she’d probably lose half of her fanbase because of racial bias not culture.

Likewise, shows like “Friends”, “I Love Lucy”, and “Leave it To Beaver” shouldn’t be considered a part of white culture because whites like them. It should be because they express something that is identifiably white.

There ya go, that was a generalization. I suppose I was trying to look at a broader view, that even slaves from different African cultures had much more in common with each other than with European immigrants. Likewise, the “white devil slavemasters”, be they Irish, Polish, English, whatever, again in a broader sense, had more in common with each other than their transposed African workforce.

Maybe that’s my problem. My father was in the Air Force, and we moved around from state to state every few years… in addition, it seems that I have picked up that ‘habit’ myself. My family is… well, mutts. Not only that, but we have dispersed all over the country. For those white families who have melted into the pot, not to mention having been stirred up a bit, we have no discernable nationality, except being “white” and American. Since I fit in there, the only culture I have experienced has been the things already discussed: Elvis, Leave it to Beaver, all the holidays that advertisers sell us, turkey and mashed potatoes for Thanksgiving, fireworks on Independence Day (the TOTALLY ironic ‘American’ cultural identifier), Officer Friendly, Beverly Hillbillies! I was just a youngin, but I recollect gittin jumpy as a fly on a lantern when they went to color. Gilligan’s Isle!!! A THREE HOUR TOUR!!

So, if what scabpicker said is correct, that modern American culture essentially started with Elvis, that was the first culture to grow up watching TV. Why hasn’t someone brought this up yet?

If our culture really is 60 years old, then we really don’t have a history, since many of its first members are still alive. Third generation culture? Baby boomers, yuppies, then gen-x-ers, right? We brought things from our past into it, too, Thanksgiving is not new. However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that turkey was not eaten at the first Thanksgiving. Can a Straight Doper help me out with that? Most certainly, the first Americans did NOT know what it meant if someone said “Hey, Lucy, I’m hoooome” or “Yabba dabba doo!” or even “tastes great, less filling”. The age issue is important! Exactly WHEN did we start eating turkey for Thanksgiving?

And, does it have anything to do with television?