Attorneys are generally well-educated, well-trained, usually at least reasonably affluent people, often from the safe and sterile suburbs.
Claimants are … to some degree … everybody. It’s not unreasonable to understand these differences and how they may drive different behavior.
Ditto law enforcement vs. … “criminals” (I continue to use this term out of pure convenience). Or ditto law enforcement and … the people they’re charged with ‘protecting and serving.’
The “talk” is about avoiding police when you can, and using extreme caution when you can’t. Keeping your hands in plain sight at all times, avoiding body language or extended eye contact that could be interpreted as aggressive, etc.
The mindset is this absolute, certain knowledge:
If you are black and you interact with a cop, you are more likely to die than a white person is.
So what’s confusing about the fight or flight response saying, “Run! You will die!” in a situation like that?
OK. I don’t understand that mindset, but understand I have little to offer in this or similar threads.
Just to suggest I am equal opportunity clueless - my SIL (white, professional) had her arm broken by a cop. After a traffic stop, he thought her impaired and began to cuff her. She didn’t want to be cuffed, and started swinging her 1 cuffed arm about. He reacted with excessive (IMO) force. Should he have broken her arm? Of course not. But I can’t imagine how my stupid SIL thought she had the option of complying or not. And if she had allowed herself to be cuffed, her arm would not have been broken.
And to say she lost all rational capability due to “fight or flight” IMO does a considerable disservice to her as a sentient being. People make dumb decisions all the time. Doesn’t mean they lack capacity to make better decisions.
Because it’s obvious and utterly non controversial observation? Don’t fight cops. They can kill you with absolutely no repercussions. Also, don’t break the law. Both of these are the most banal possible comments one could make in a thread like this. Literally every single person in this thread knows and agrees with these two absolutely trivial conclusions. Don’t break laws, don’t fight cops. Nobody’s brought that up because there’s no discussion to be had there. There’s no one on the “Fighting cops is a good idea!” side of the debate.
Does this extremely, extremely obvious explanation clear things up for you?
Thanks. So when someone does something incredibly stupid and inexcusable, and experiences harm as a result, my response has a sizable component of (shrug) “Hmm - dumbfuck.”
Yeah - I would think that this “extremely, extremely obvious explanation” warrants at least passing mention in a lengthy discussion. Not all persons injured/killed by cops are created equal. And I’m less exercised about harm that befalls people who play a great role in bringing it upon themself. Must be just me.
It’s more than just not poking the bear, the bear can choose to take an interest in you, and start poking at you until they manage to get you to react in any way that justifies their escalation in use of force.
None, but people occasionally do get tired of being oppressed, especially when they haven’t done something seriously wrong, and sometimes act out about it.
It may not be wise to get fed up with it, but there’s realistically only so much abuse that a person should have to endure at the hands of so-called “peace officers.”
Go somewhere where you will be looked at with suspicion anytime you encounter law enforcement, where you will have numerous interactions with them against your will, while doing nothing wrong yourself, leaving you feeling denigrated and dehumanized. Watch as your friends and family and others who look like you are also denigrated, dehumanized, and sometimes even tortured or killed.
Then you might be beginning to start to understand that mindset.
@Isamu checked out of the thread early, we found the yes-man that he was talking about.
This is an extremely important insight. We can never truly understand the mindset of a generationally oppressed underclass on any level other than an intellectual one. We can empathize with it, take steps to effect change, and listen to the lived experiences of people with less privilege than we have.
The thing is, we haven’t even gotten into a fraction of the other issues at play. Here are some other true statements.
If you are black:
And that’s just a slice of the pie. But hopefully you begin to understand why the way you interact with and think about the police is not just different, but might as well be on a different planet altogether.
Aside from stop-and-frisk (well discussed elsewhere), far too many of these incidents arise from pretextual traffic stops. It’s important – for anybody unfamiliar – to get a bit of context on this issue (among so many others):
Just one important bit – think about this:
Go look at the DoJ’s investigation into Ferguson, MO. Wait until we hear back on the DoJ investigation into MPLS PD.
This shit is baked in. If I’m a person of color, how am I not supposed to view every encounter with a LEO as potentially ending like Ahmaud Arbery ?
As was mentioned above, bears don’t only kill those who poked them.
I’ll drift back to the main topic now.
Wow, what a startling and iconoclastic reaction!
That was sarcasm, for the record. Again, pretty much everyone feels like that, to one degree or another.
Just being a dumbfuck doesn’t give the state license to murder you.
Why? What do you think pointing out to this adds to the conversation?
You are just the fucking king of obvious statements, aren’t you?
No, there’s millions and millions of other people like you out there. It’s a big part of why the justice system in this country is so deeply fucked up.
I understand that quite well. And I can only imagine how infuriating that would be.
But I don’t understand the vast difference WRT self preservation. Yeah, as a person of color I may not deserve to have been stopped. Yeah, there is a CHANCE I might get killed if I do everything the cop says. And likely a CERTAINTY that I will experience unwarranted unpleasantness, indignity, etc.
But the flick of a switch that makes someone think running and fighting will improve things? That I don’t understand. And I almost have to dehumanize someone to suggest that is an understandable reaction.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I agree that police pursuit policies require drastic rethinking/reworking. This dumbfuck shoulda been allowed to run away, and been picked up later.
It is a reaction that happens over and over and over and over and over again. In different communities, in different states, in different jurisdictions. It’s not some weird outlier or statistical anomaly.
And it’s not a flick of a switch - it’s centuries of generational trauma and oppression combined with a criminal justice system that is quite literally out to get them.
Trying to understand that isn’t dehumanizing them. Quite the opposite. Dehumanization is how we got to this point in the first place.
Again, you don’t have to understand the mindset. But if you want to grow, you will have to accept that your perspective is incomplete, and your lack of understanding is your deficiency, not theirs.
If the police had chosen to escalate this situation and shoot Eric, would you think that he’s just a Dumbfuck that contritubed to his own demise?
@Dinsdale Consider, just for a moment, that not all human beings are rational actors at all times. It is possible that you have not had any experiences in your life where you were not acting based on rational thought. So, this may be foreign to you.
No, the fight or flight reflex is actually quite sensible and intelligent. Because in a high-stress, high-risk situation like that, if you take the time to stop to think about what the wisest response is, you’re likely to end up dead before you finish the train of thought. So evolution has equipped us with a set of instincts that we can call upon very quickly, and which, in the majority of situations we’ve evolved to deal with, work out considerably better than doing nothing.
The only way to replace those instincts is with something that is similarly quick to come to a conclusion. And the only way to do that is with lots and lots of training, so much training that you can’t afford to do it unless it’s literally your job. Which it is for the police, but isn’t for the vast majority of people they deal with.
So, no, someone who panics when confronted with a dangerous animal like a police officer is not being stupid. They’re being smart.
I am not an expert in modern psychology (and am highly dubious of many aspects of it.) But please explain exactly what is meant by “fight or flight” as folk are using it.
My ignorant understanding is that it describes a combination of autonomic responses - pupil dilation, increased heart rate/breathing, etc - which PRIMES the body for action. I understand that you have no conscious control over the increased heart rate, but does current research suggest that once the body is primed to act, that you have no control over the actual action? Is there a distinction between an isolated rapid action - say, a quick punch, and a series of escalating actions such as this guy exhibited - not following the order to get in the car, walking away, running, struggling over the taser…?
My personal feeling - which I’m sure many will disagree with - is that the fight or flight reflex clearly exists, but it is excessively relied upon and extended to excuse poor choices/behavior.
Is it a good idea to cooperate with a cop and allow yourself to be incapacitated so he and his buddies can more easily beat the crap out of you? Doesn’t occur to ‘white’ folks all that often, does it?
I readily acknowledge my ignorance - and doubt clear statistics are kept. But how often does what you describe happen to persons of color following routine traffic stops, in the day, when persons cooperate with the cops in the presence of witnesses.
No, I do not deny that it has happened on occasion. But are there statistical studies of the sorts of conditions and behaviors that occurred immediately before inappropriate LEO use of force?
Please explain how this situation is similar to the OP. The cops made a mistake. Quite possibly reflecting racial bias, but possibly also just a mistake. When the guy got angry, the cops remained very calm, and eventually said they understood, and apologized.
No, the shopper did not deserve to be stopped. I am not thrilled by the cops’ use of the term, “Boss.” I also think it problematic that they did not give clear orders other than “Take your hands out of your pocket.” And it seems like an awful lot of police action over possible shoplifting.
But all in all - that video looks to me like a situation that pretty much went as it ought to. The shopper was reasonably angry - but he didn’t run away and fight.
Relevant: