Well, as it turns out I was mistaken. At least about the etiquette question. I did a bit of research among my etiquette books and it seems I was somewhat skewed – the etiquette allowance against following along with spoken prayers and creeds is in support of non-believers (or believers in a different denomination or faith) not in support of the believers at the church in question. Etiquette, in other words, doesn’t require you to go against your own belief system in order to be polite. So, respectful participation (standing when others stand, bowing your head when they pray, and dressing appropriately) is the requirement when at someone else’s church, but it’s perfectly polite not to participate further. And, some types of participation is prohibited to non-believers by most churches. For instance, most churches don’t allow just anyone to take communion. The Lutheran church my children attend allows “baptised Christians who believe that the body and blood of Christ are present in the bread and wine” to commune. Other churches limit communion to members of their denomination, or even to members of their congregation. Now, nobody is standing at the rail, usually, checking your baptism record, or asking pointed questions, but, still… it would be rude to disobey the church rules in his regard.
Now, personally, I think is disrespectful to speak out a creed, say, you don’t believe in. The Apostle’s creed, for instance, begins: 'I believe in God the father, maker of Heaven and Earth…" and for many people it is a confession of heartfelt belief. I think it’s disrespectful of that belief to just rattle it off as if it were a poem. Same with prayers – to us nonbelievers they are merely words (and some of them are fun to say), but to the members of the church, they are sacred words directed to a God they believe in and, IMO, spouting such things just-for–fun is disrespectful of their sincere belief – making it a mockery, if you will. However, that’s a line I drew myself, not one etiquette drew. So, I apologize for putting words in etiquette’s mouth.
I would say because the words are distinctly an act of devotion/worship. The difference seems obvious to me at least.It could be thought(and I suppose rightly) that you are offering up insincere prayers.
As a younger atheist I mumbled along. Now I do as already suggested: stand&sit with crowd, keeping silent. Have to admit I still got choked up by “What a friend we have in Jesus” at Grandpa’s funeral.
I agree with the basic sentiments, but I’d also add that I would not feel true to myself if I made a false profession of faith. For me that would not preclude obeying a dress code (including donning a head covering if appropriate) or ordinary gestures of respect such as standing or sitting at certain times. I do not however, cross myself, kneel, pray or sing hymns, all of which I consider to have specific religious significance.
However, I admit to occasionally singing along with religion-based Christmas carols that have become an established part of a secularized festivity, so it’s all arbitrary in the end. IMO, that’s part and parcel of being an atheist/agnostic: facing the fact that there are gray areas of right and wrong, taking responsibility for your own choices and accepting that others may draw their own lines differently.
Ah well, despite what you all say, I reserve the right to sing the songs while simultaneously disbelieving the words. There are some damn fine hymns around. And Handel’s Messiah.
To qualify: I must admit if I know the words to a song I can’t help but sing along a bit. I definately draw the line at prayer. I should also say that the main reason for this stance is my own internal integrity not out of politeness. Saying prayers makes me queasy.
I’m with you, jjimm. If you look back you’ll see I put singing in a gray area. I always sing the hymns – I have a terrible voice, but I love to sing! My personal line is drawn at prayers/ professions of faith. Of course, I’m an unusual atheist – I have an emotional response to much of Christian ritual despite my lack of personal belief. There are a lot of hymns I simply love and I can’t help but sing along.
Agreed. My husband and I offered Communion/Eucharist at our wedding. We had a nice note in the program inviting all who wanted to join in with the prayers and singing to do so, but explained that Communion was only for those who profess Christ. That way folks wouldn’t feel awkward. I know some of my Catholic friends didn’t want to take Communion even just at a Protestant church. So that was fine with us. Just as a funeral is a celebration of the deceased’s life, our wedding was a celebration of our union. So it really didn’t bother me that some of the celebrants did not come to the table. I really didn’t even notice if anyone didn’t sing or pray.
Jess, I don’t think anyone here has said they are trying to mock religion. Personally, I’ve never heard of such a thing being done. When I accompanied my friend to her Pentecostal church, I wouldn’t have dreamed of pretending to speak in tongues or fake tremors, even though many people in the congregation do such things. Again, I just think common sense is what is needed. I’ve been to lots of church services, and have never heard of anyone being rebuked for “faking it”. I have, however heard of people being offended by disrespectfulness in the form of talking or laughing during prayers, reading during the sermon, or things of that nature that are obviously disrespectful.
What’s really funny is that it’s often the true believers in the congregation who are screwing around; they just have more experience in how to get away with it. For example, I performed at my friend’s church where he was the choir director at the time. He is a devout Christian, but before the service, he had placed a sheet of really off-color jokes on each or our music stands.
Oh, I wasn’t really addressing that to people in this thread. I’m sorry if it seemed that way. I was just explaining why my particular line is drawn there – by praying out loud, or affirming a creed, I feel personally that I am making a mockery of something other people take very seriously. I didn’t mean mocking in the sense of using a funny voice or rolling the eyes – just that, by affirming something I don’t believe, or praying to a diety in whom I don’t believe I am personally mocking other’s beliefs. I feel funny about that. And so I don’t do it.
About #2, my own mind is that you should not feel repulsed by anything in your usual environment in the way of funeral practices, meaning your usual funeral environment certainly will not entail anything morally repulsive. Are you repulsed by the re-enactment of a human sacrifice? that’s the Catholic Mass.
The moment when I was in my parents church, and was asked to recite “I believe in God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth,” and realized that in fact I didn’t and therefore should keep my mouth shut, was a big moment in my religious life. Words are very powerful.
Songs are different, as has been noted. I am thinking in particular of a friend of mine, a religious Jew, who sings in many choirs and is often in the position of singing not only Handel’s Messiah but many other hymns - simply because a lot of really gorgeous choral music happens to be about Christ. But she sings it for the joy of singing - and most hymns seem to be more along the lines of “God is Great” than “I Believe in God the Father” etc. It seems to me that for non-theists, singing about God being Great is along the lines of singing about Puff the Magic Dragon.
The same friend was married in an orthodox synagogue and all attendees to the wedding were asked to respect the rules: no uncovered shoulders for women, yarmulkes for men. Not because it signified that you were under God’s rule, but that you were in God’s house - and, again, more of a show of respect for the people than for God. It’s like me asking you to adhere to my rules when you come to my house. For instance, I am vegetarian, and I may ask you not to fry bacon in my kitchen because the smell will make me (physically or maybe spiritually) ill. Your refraining from doing that is out of respect for me and has nothing to do with your attitude towards vegetarians or towards bacon, and we both understand that. Or your Catholic friend asking you to please not say “I swear to God, I’m going to get laid tonight …” in his presence, out of respect for him, not for his God.
Overall my attitude is that if I find myself in a religious place it’s pretty certain that I’m not there for my own benefit. So I will conduct myself in a manner appropriate to the interests of those I am there for.
During prayers, I bow my head, but I usually look around discreetly. This lets me note who the other atheists are. I think of it as a form of communion for the ungodly.
I think I might have an insight into the ‘rabid’ hostility of atheists towards religions and religious peoples. The key is the distinction between atheism and antitheism. Rabid atheists are actually antitheists; otherwise why would they feel hypocrisy, insincerity, repulsion, discomfort in participating with religious peoples in their theistic ceremonials?
The prefixes: ‘a’ and ‘anti’ I believe should be employed by people who call themselves atheists generally. Because there are atheists who are intellectual gentlemen in regard to theists and their beliefs, observances, and ceremonials; and there are the ‘rabid’ ones in regard to theists; these latters I think should be labeled antitheists.
They are not in charge of their own funerals, unless they had earlier arranged for everything and appointed some people to carry out everything to the letter in their pre-dispositions.
Have you read about why atheists should not die atheists, because they would be dressed up with nowhere to go? Silly.
Not that I am worried for them, I mean atheists.
For my part, I find self-effected termination very logical and feasible.
Now the way to go about it is to arrange with the funeral parlor operator, the undertaker, I think that’s the name for these people, for all the particulars before I take the act of self-termination.
Then on the appointed time I would drive over to the funeral house, park in its grounds and do the self-termination, cleanly, very neatly, taking the important task of first calling up by cellphone the undertaker to come over to the car, and pick me up for the rest of his contracted work.
I think I would provide for myself some kind of eclectic funeral service to be managed by the undertaker. No, no purely atheistic funeral for me, without all the customary color, music, and props of the conventional religious last ceremonies. I am an optional theist, a postgraduate Catholic.
I also realise that funerals are for those left behind, not for the dead. Which almost certainly means there will be praying etc, probably some religious ceremony involved since most of my family is christian.
No matter how much I rant to family members how the ceremony should be donducted, they will grieve and perform the ceremony as will make them most comfortable.
For example, I’m adamant about NOT wanting an open coffin wake. But both my SO and mother say that there WILL be one regardless Even threats of a possible haunting do not persuade them.
Oh well, as long as I’m cremated and my ashes scattered around a cool place (like a castle! ) I’ll have piece of mind.
Even threats of a possible haunting do not persuade them.