What the world really needs now is "fire & fury"

The BBQ Pit
81

Let’s reason this through. Is the North Korean dude suicidal? No. Do nuclear weapons help prevent an invasion? Yes. Ask Ukraine if they should have gave theirs up…

So, Kim Jung-un is doing what exactly? Trying to maintain power. How? By not appearing weak domestically and having a deterrent to invasion. He’s not nuking Guam or California. These are signals. What is Trump doing? That’s a good question. Will it lead to a nuclear attack on North Korea? I don’t see it.

I think the rhetoric is unnecessary. We and the world know that the US is, by far, the dominant military power. For at least 10 more years. People also know we have some resolve in using military power. We don’t need to bluster to portray strength.

82

Well I’m surprised.
I would have thought Trumps evangelical advisory board was commissioned to relay Trump’s instructions direct to the Almighty.

“any means necessary” obviously includes employing evil to stop evil, setting up an auto-catalytic chain reaction.

83

That’s true but

  1. That is not what Trump said, and

  2. Surely every country in the world already knows that launching a nuclear missile at a nuclear power will invite a nuclear response? I mean, that’s not a secret, is it?

Of course Trump will order a retaliatory strike if the Norks nuke anything. So would have Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter… everyone understands the consequences of flinging a nuclear weapon at the United States.

84

And here is the key sentence, everyone.

The issue here is not whether you know Trump will try a nuclear wag the dog, or whether Kim Jong Un is actually considering nuking Guam. The point here is instability.

Wars are very often not planned events, or, at best, they are half assed plans. Nobody wanted the First World War; it was a cascade of events and bad decisions that led to Europe trying to slit its own throat. The Falklands War was a case of two countries failing to understand the actual policy of the other. The Vietnam War has been cited already. The First Gulf War happened because Saddam Hussein was inadvertently given the impression the USA would not seek to liberate Kuwait. I could go on and on.

All levels of uncertainly when it comes to nuclear war are unacceptable. The consequences of a mistake aren’t just bad, they’re catastrophic to our species. That is why, during the Cold War, the lines were quite clearly drawn between NATO and the Soviets/Warsaw Pact; this is our side and this is your side, and if you cross the line, God help us all. The Soviets were not going to invade West Germany when they knew the result would be nuclear war, and vice versa. I’m not discounting the terrible human toll of the proxy wars fought outside Europe, but the peace was kept there, and the missile kept in the silos, by virtue of the fact that it was very clear to both sides what the other side’s policy was.

What Trump has done, stupidly, is make American policy unclear. Is he going to attack North Korea for threatening? He said he would, but now he’s not. Is he willing to go to the mattresses if Russia attacks a NATO member? Up until January 20, 2017, it was clear that the USSR/Russia attacking a NATO country was suicide; now, maybe not so much. I’m not saying I know Putin wants to invade Poland, but the thing is that in 2015 Vladimir Putin, who is not dumb, knew doing that would result in a devastating retaliation and the likely annihilation of his country. Now, well, he’s not so sure, is he? And if Trump’s not possessed of a great understanding of the value of making the tripwires clear, it’s very likely he doesn’t get what OTHER countries’ tripwires are, and would be surprised that China might take offense to an attack on North Korea. Of course I am sure the adults in the room are trying to get that across to him, but he doesn’t listen to things he doesn’t like to hear.

Trump, like many idiots, believes he’s playing a game of deals and winning and losing where being unpredictable is a virtue, and pulling off an unexpected move leads to winning. War and peace are not games, and history bears out that unpredictability leads to tragedy.

The difference now is that in 1914, when some loser from the sticks committed a murder that started a fire no one could put out, about sixteen million people died. If a mistake is made today, three billion people could die.

85

Rick Perry put glasses on the missiles.

Now they are smart missiles.

They don’t hate America, they just hate the people who live there. Democrats for voting against them, and republicans for being stupid enough to vote for them.

It was the greatest bestest nuclear war! Millions died. More people died in my war than in any other war in history!

86

What RickJay said in post #84.

87

I don’t know. I don’t think you know, either. We really know very little about him as a person.

Also, you don’t have to be suicidal to make a lethal mistake.

If Kim nukes Guam we aren’t going to invade North Korea. If Kim nukes Guam Trump will order a nuclear counter-strike. That’s a bombing, not an invasion.

Not right now, but the regime has a history of doing things like dropping conventional missiles here and there, shelling islands, kidnapping ships and crews, trains and crews…

They keep poking everyone around them with a sharp stick. One day, someone is going to have enough (or get poked in the eye) and slap them down.

I don’t think Trump is going to drop a nuke first. I am absolutely convinced he will try to drop one second (the only reason that wouldn’t happen is the military refusing to follow the order).

Then why does our current PotUS spend so much time blustering?

88

Said Donald J. Trump, never.

Is foremost in the mind of Donald J. Trump, Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States — NOT.

89

For fun, let’s say NK nukes Guam. Then the US retaliates by nuking Pyongyang. What are the chances of China then firing nukes back our way?

90

Post #84 should be required reading.

91

As the article mentioned, this pastor’s attitude is totally consistent with how a lot of Baptists think.

They take Romans 13, which starts out-- “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”

And they push that all out of proportion, until they’re practically worshiping the government in place of God.

I come from a very conservative religious tradition which leans towards pacifism and conscientious objecting to war. (Sort of one-half Quaker in that regard, so to speak.) But a lot of Baptists have the attitude, “It doesn’t matter what God says elsewhere in the Bible about war and killing – if the government tells you to go kill people, you’d better do it.”

92

I don’t know if China would resort to nukes, but a Chinese military confrontation with the United States would be a very distinct possibility. At minimum, the aftermath would probably result in a Chinese military that is far more aggressive in confronting any perceived military threat from the US, and it might also result in China working much more closely with Putin to make sure that the US doesn’t do anything stupid.

93

Pretty much zero, I would think. What would the Chinese gain? The real question is what would happen to Seoul, in such a scenario.

94

My guess is Seoul would be gone in such a scenario. Nuclear exchange would destabilize pretty much everything, globally. We fire nukes back at NK, then how many do they fire back in a Hail Mary?

95

Boy, he sure did.

(Be warned: this is from Steve Benen at Maddowblog. He does have links and everything, so I would would say his comments are sourced.)

So, let me see if I have this timeline straight:

  1. Intelligence reports say that NK now has a nuke that can be fitted on a missile.

  2. As a response, Trump promises “fire and fury” if NK threatens us again.

  3. NK immediately threatens us again, specifically Guam.

  4. Trump responds by figuratively waving his missile around (Modernized! Renovated! Mine is bigger than yours!).

The man is a child, mentally and emotionally. Wars start and escalate through error and misinterpretation. Right now, we have two schoolyard bullies daring, double-daring, and double-dog-daring each other; how long until one of them is goaded into doing something from which there is no turning back?

I don’t think it will necessarily start with nukes. Maybe Trump will drop another MOAB in the middle of a rice paddy or something, just to show how big and bad we are. But it could well end with nukes.

This is not normal.

96

Not normal at all. I’d feel better with Todd Margaret in the Oval Office.

97

…Praise the Lord and pass the radiation…
Seriously, if you’re just starting the thread, go back and read all of Asahi and Rick Jay’s posts (Brickers’ too, if you have time). Rest of it is spackle. I’m not adding more because the aforementioned posters have pretty much covered the salient points, IMHO.

98

Trump is like a psycho ex boyfriend: “If I can’t be President of the USA, nobody can!”

And that’s probably exactly how feels about his country.

The two of those things combined make this whole thing quite scary.

99

Could you imagine if Trump were president during the Cuban Missile Crisis? No, you couldn’t, because the world would be a glowing ball of green incandescent gamma radiation.

100

Or test the range on that most recent missile to see if it really can hit DC.