Im exploring the option of renting 50acres (35 acre field/15 woods) to a group of about 200. Several will want to camp on it as well. They plan on having events, and charge admission
I have no idea what I should charge for rent. $1500 would be nice, but I don’t know if that’s out of line, nor do I know if its way less than market value.
Does anyone out there have experience in such things and can provide some advice?
Market value is determined by where you live and what comparable venues in your area would charge. Off the cuff, $1,500 seems very cheap to me - that’s less than eight bucks a person.
First things first - do you need to get a permit to hold an event on your land? If yes, what’s that going to run you? Will there be any other fees from your local ordinance to hold a festival on your lands? In a similar vein, will you be purchasing event insurance? What will that run you?
Will you be expected to provide anything to them? Water, bathroom facilities, etc. In that vein, will you be having a professional help you to draw up any kind of contract laying out expectations for each party and protecting you from liability?
What will it cost you in time and/or money to clean up after them? 200 people are going to leave a serious mess behind and you probably don’t want to single-handedly clean up trash across 50 acres of land.
My first thought was liability insurance, but I think the festival organizers should pay for that. In fact, I think $500/day is fair, provided they leave it as they found it, meaning they clean up and repair any damages, in addition to proving they have insurance, plans for toilets and handwash facilities, and all that.
As to how to enforce it, no clue - a big deposit?
And how much of the rent will you get up front? It could easily rain, or the event gets cancelled for some other reason, and the renters could try to get out of paying.
Oh, and is there power available? My kid got married in a woods, and was told they’d have to have acoustic music, as there was an absurdly long extension cord (from a garage over the next hill), but only enough power for a microphone, not amps.
But if it all goes well, and Santana and Phish decide they need a festival to play at, and suddenly Dylan shows up… you’ll be the Max Yasgur of 2020!
Ok, thanks for the other things I have to consider, and I’ve started researching those things (permits and such)…but
…my initial concern was “what is a reasonable price to charge?” Does anyone have experience or resources I can look up and learn about what the market price is for such things.
I’ve done a bit of google searching (not enough apparently), and there doesn’t seem to have values readily available
Your reasonable price is going to be heavily based on your own expenses. But you can start by checking to see if your city or county has a similarly sized fairgrounds or something and then calling to inquire about pricing. Likewise nearby state parks which host events.
Give it to them rent free in exchange for the parking concession.
It’s going to depend largely on where you are located. You appear to be providing only space, no facilities whatsoever. Just as a data point, this public regional park with a pavilion charges $1600 for a 7-hour event. This is in a suburb of DC, with a high population density and high median income.
If you are in Middle Of Nowhere it will be less than that. You should probably base your price on its value to the promoters, not just the local market. It will be hard to establish the market for 50-acre unimproved sites for temporary use for camping and concerts.
In 2000 I went to the Indianapolis 500 with a bunch of guys. People who live near the track were charging people to park in their yards and it was purely market price. We saw one of the last great spots being auctioned, with two guys bidding back and forth.
Talk to your insurance company before you do anything. Leaving the liability insurance to the festival organizers may work as far as having them pay for it, but you need to know what your insurance company requires them to have. And, as has been said, find out whether you need a local permit (you’d need one here, no matter how far out on a back road you are.)
If $1500ish is what you’re looking for, it should be $1500 on top of all your other expenses. As other people mentioned, you’re going to want to provide toilets and water. You may need to provide electricity. You’ll probably need permits. You should get some type of insurance. Probably a few other things. With 200ish people for 4 days, you might want to talk to your EMTs or private ambulance company. It might be worth have a rig stationed nearby in case something goes wrong.
So, maybe all this stuff costs $5000, charge them $7000.
Keep in mind, they’re charging admission, they’re planning to make money. Don’t do this for free.
I also liked what someone else mentioned. It’s probably a good idea to get deposit ahead of time. Let’s say $3000. They pay you $10,000 before the first day, you give them $3000 back after they’ve cleared out and you’ve inspected the grounds. If they absolutely trash 50 acres, you’re probably going to have to hire help to clean it up.
This way, they can make sure to clean up the place and not leaving it looking like the day after woodstock.
Similarly, if they want to get their own insurance or their own toilets etc, you can charge them less.
And, I’d strongly recommend getting toilets there. They’re going to have to use the bathroom, better off there than 2 feet past the wood line.
It depends a LOT on who you’re renting to–I’ve autocratted numerous SCA events and we always got a good deal because we handled all our own insurance, potties, water, etc. and were known to be better than Boy Scouts for leaving the place spic and span–the only way you’d know we’d been there was the tromped down grass. On the other hand, we would run into gunshy property owners initially unwilling to rent to us because they’d been burned by Civil War reenactors who, I’m not even joking, threw pig guts and blood around their battlefield for verisimilitude and LEFT it there. In a Sacramento summer. Some people are too stupid to breathe, I swear.
So yeah, I’d ask for references from other venues they’ve rented to see if you have angels or devils to contend with. That being said, even twenty five years ago $1500 for a four day event lease would have been completely reasonable, although that would have been for a kingdom level event with more like 1000-2000 in attendance.
I would not do shit. I would just get a lawyer to write a contract and put in the contract that the buyer will be responsible for all of this. Otherwise you are taking on a big project, when all you really wanted to do was pocket a few extra bucks. The buyer must be responsible for fulfilling all local government requirements; providing all necessary temporary facilities, power, potable water; and for leaving the property substantially in the condition it was before the event.
My gut reaction is that a lot of things could go wrong.
I’ve played around with some numbers, and talked to friends, SCA-types (fencing/reenactment club), even a music festival organizer (I know weird people). And the more I hear, the more leery I’d be.
Can you eat and clothe yourself if you don’t rent your land to these people? I’d figure out if I could afford to say no.
My experience with rural camping festivals is limited to rave parties in the mid-late 90s. This would have been both as an attendee but also as a professional service provider, depending on the event. They absolutely laid waste to the grounds and those bordering, too. The portapotties were massively (over the seat) overloaded, Graffiti & vandalism. If there’s rain, it will be a muddy mess. Those property owners will be finding empty nitrous oxide chargers for decades. I can’t imagine having an event like that on a property I own.
It sounds like SCA & BSA and others are far more responsible.
Oh lawdy what a clustermonkey–yeah, I wouldn’t rent my land for a music venue of any kind because I’ve never seen one yet that was anything BUT a huge headache and a total mess for the landowner. I like drugs as much as the next person but in my experience the majority of people shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near any mind altering substance, especially alcohol.
Sounds like someone massively underestimated the number of portapotties they would need.
Is the four days the length of the festival, or the length of the land rental? Because for even a small festival, you’re going to want to have them setting up the day before, unless it starts up in the evening. You’re also going to need to factor in a day for take-down and cleanup. Of course, the actual amount of effort in setup and take-down will depend on the type of festival, but just having portable toilets and water stations delivered will take time, along with designating areas for parking, camping, events and a safety station.
How did the festival organisers find you? You’ll need to be a lot more cautious if you don’t know the organisers very well.
At a minimum, you should try to find out about your local government’s permit requirements, and if the permit stipulates additional requirements. Request an initial deposit to cover the cost of the permit and your time organising it and setting up the actual agreement between you and the event organisers. For the cost of the land-rental $3-5/head/day seems reasonable so $2400-$4000 for 200 people over four days. Adjust your charge based on whether the festival is low impact (i.e. a re-enactment group) or high impact (a music festival). Maybe also ask the organisers how much they’re planning to charge for tickets.
Make sure that you do have a signed agreement for the rental, and that it covers all conditions stipulated by the permit (if required), and at a minimum toilets, water stations, and a safety station as well as insurance. You can probably call up a rental company to get a recommendation on the number of units for toilets and water stations. Include in the contract that you have a right of refusal for the opening of the festival if the above conditions are not met. Make it clear that there needs to be someone awake and sober at all times during the festival including at night. Make it clear they have to clean up after the festival, and require a deposit to ensure they do the clean-up. Otherwise expect to pick up 50 acres of trash.
Im addition to likely overcrowding*, who knows what was down there…which brings up another easy-to-overlook need: garbage management. Without convenient bins scattered around the grounds and a dumpster to empty them into, the portapotties are the next best thing.
*You could buy tickets ahead of time for a small discount but could also just show up and pay at the gate (or effortlessly sneak in) so they didn’t really know how many people to plan for.