What to do about immigration?

[Sunrazor]

@Lissa

Yes, and I also understand that there’s a fine line between prejudice and racism. I stand by my previous assertion that there’s little difference between this and thinking that a group of black people standing on the street must contain criminals. Sure, I guess you could justify it to yourself with statistics, but it’s still Not Cool.

Heaven help us for being “not cool.” I have to agree with LonesomePolecat. I have lived in the western U.S. all my life, and in my 55 years of experience, brown-skinned people who speak only Spanish (not just among themselves, mind you – these people don’t know English) are usually not American citizens. And in any group of them, there are three genuine green cards for every five adults. Them’s the statistics, according to the law enforcement folks.

Look, it’s fine to be a politically correct at the cocktail party, but if you’re going to have serious discussions about how immigration affects our lives, you have to face reality, and I think LonesomePolecat has a better fix on the harsh reality than Lissa gives credit for.

[Unregistered_Bull]

@jeffrice

Them’s the statistics, according to the law enforcement folks.

Then you have a cite? I’ve encountered many a non-illegal alien that had almost zero English skills. Mostly Spanish but also German. This is in New Mexico and Texas FWIW.

[Unregistered_Bull]

And 3 out of 5 with ‘green cards’ would make them clearly mostly LEGAL anyway.

[Sunrazor]

@Unregistered Bull

Then you have a cite? I’ve encountered many a non-illegal alien that had almost zero English skills. Mostly Spanish but also German. This is in New Mexico and Texas FWIW.

No cite, unless you count the local police chief, and God only knows where he got the information – oh, wait, maybe it was from the last four vans full of illegals he had to hold overnight after they were pulled off the interstate here.

Remember, we got here by discussing who is doing the nasty or back-breaking jobs that today’s English-speaking, unemployed U.S. citizens don’t want to do. Lissa was busting LonesomePolecat’s hump for making a politically incorrect assumption. Not an incorrect one, mind you, but a POLITICALLY incorrect one, one that offended his/her sense of liberal fair play.

Do illegal immigrants take jobs from U.S. citizens? Ask the lettuce growers in California, who haven’t been able to hire all the farm hands they need for harvest since at least 1998 (migration.ucdavis.edu). A more recent article from Associated Press (via Salon.com) indicates those same farmers still cannot hire enough help, and when local unskilled laborers are hired, they aren’t as good as the Mexican laborers (the article specified Mexican, Lissa, as in citizens of Mexico). So, my advice would be for LonesomePolecat to head for California to make extra money doing seasonal work.

As for the politically incorrect assumptions LP and I make, maybe we wouldn’t make 'em if we didn’t constantly see evidence to support these assumptions. I spent 20 years as a newspaper reporter and editor, and I know that anecdotal evidence isn’t a substitute for hard research. I also know that Googling isn’t a form of hard research, so the constant demand for “cites” that I see in these threads are just another way of saying, “I don’t want to believe that, so back it up with a hyperlink or shut up.”

[Unregistered_Bull]

So there is no cite at all, just solely the opinion of one man that you take whole heartedly without question.

[Lissa]

@jeffrice

No cite, unless you count the local police chief, and God only knows where he got the information – oh, wait, maybe it was from the last four vans full of illegals he had to hold overnight after they were pulled off the interstate here.

Anecdotal stories are not evidence.

Remember, we got here by discussing who is doing the nasty or back-breaking jobs that today’s English-speaking, unemployed U.S. citizens don’t want to do. Lissa was busting LonesomePolecat’s hump for making a politically incorrect assumption. Not an incorrect one, mind you, but a POLITICALLY incorrect one, one that offended his/her sense of liberal fair play.

I stand by my assertion that it’s no different than being afraid of a group of black people because statistics say that one out of four is likely a criminal. If it’s “liberal” to dislike prejudice, then I will accept the lable gladly.

As for the politically incorrect assumptions LP and I make, maybe we wouldn’t make 'em if we didn’t constantly see evidence to support these assumptions.

People have tried to use that excuse for years for prejudices against blacks, Asians, Hispanics . . . Sterotypes may have a grain of truth at their root, but it still doesn’t make them acceptable. It’s much like those who point to one or two lazy welfare recipients that they know and use that “evidence” to back up the claim that most, if not all, welfare recipients are lazy.

I spent 20 years as a newspaper reporter and editor, and I know that anecdotal evidence isn’t a substitute for hard research.

Huh. Couldn’t prove it by today’s papers-- I sometimes see reporting of urban legends as fact, skewed statistics and press releases touted as articles. The news seems to be more interested in sensationalism than a concrete examination of fact. Not that I blame the media-- they’re giving the people what they want.

I also know that Googling isn’t a form of hard research. . .

It can be, if you know how to weed out the bunk from the respected research institutions. Some internet sources are quite valid-- the CDC, for example is a great place for medical statistics.

[S]o the constant demand for “cites” that I see in these threads are just another way of saying, “I don’t want to believe that, so back it up with a hyperlink or shut up.”

It’s not a matter of what we “want” to believe. Personally, I hold no beliefs that could not be changed with solid evidence to show that I am mistaken. Based on some Dope debates which have provided such information, I have changed my opinion on several issues. Only a fool clings to their opinions in the face of reason, and I strive mightily to avoid that.

Nor is a hyperlink the only way to back up an assertion. Most of us will accept a direct quote from a book, complete with author, title and preferably page number so that those of us who own the book can check it out ourselves. Hyperlinks are just easier. (Note that books are subject to the same scrutiny as to reliability.)

[jali]

The attitudes of some posters make me wonder: Why allow immigration at all? If you feel that good ole’ born in the US citizens are being denied jobs by the influx of foreigners does the status of the immigrant change the loss of the job?

All the Native American posters in this thread like suezeekay have the right to be outraged, of course. This was their land. Well, until those immigrants from Europe came over. I’m positive that suezeekay’s roots MUST be Native American to hold such attitudes about immigrants.

All the Mexican posters in this thread have the right to be outraged, of course. Much of this nation was their land. Well, until those immigrants from Europe came and in 1819 ceded Texas to Spain in the negotiations for Florida. Two years later Mexico, including Texas, had become independent, and the United States made two unsuccessful attempts to purchase Texas from Mexico. **The settlement of Texas by immigrants from the United States ** finally led to the secession of Texas and its annexation by the United States, with the result that the Mexican War broke out in May, 1846. It was closed by this treaty, by which the United States gained not only Texas but New Mexico and Upper California.

potion of http://www.azteca.net/aztec/guadhida.html

question: Can you, suezeekay tell by looking at someone what their immigration status might be? Or nationality? Were none of the people in the groups you observed born in the USA? Could any of them been accountants on their day off, shooting the s&*^ with their buddies? What exactly have you determined these guys are ignorant of?

Who was the person who started the reactionary and racist thread about the ports in the Pit a month or so ago?

[DMC]

@jali

All the Native American posters in this thread like suezeekay have the right to be outraged, of course. This was their land. Well, until those immigrants from Europe came over. I’m positive that suezeekay’s roots MUST be Native American to hold such attitudes about immigrants.

Just wanted to note that many of us with Native American roots don’t hold such attitudes about immigrants, legal or illegal. Even if we did, it seems that the current crop of illegal immigrants would piss us off a hell of a lot less than legal immigrants in the past.

[CanvasShoes]

@zamboniracer

Anybody have any good ideas about what to do with the immigration mess?

I don’t know if it’s a “good” idea or not. But I’ve long thought that a lot of problems such as illegal immigrants, welfare recipients and the like could at least be set on the road to a solution by coupling it with the closed down military bases.

We have all these empty unused cities within a city sitting around in various areas of our country. So, here’s my unorthodox, likely economically unfeasible idea.

Open those areas up to the illegals. The housing, the business buildings, the services buildings and so on and so forth. The catch would be, that in order to obtain housing and the possibility of applying for a business to run, or learn a trade to name a few, they’d have to provide information about themselves. Primarily that/if they are an illegal immigrant.

Then, they are registered, given an SS, or green card number or however it works at first. And as such, they take their first steps toward earning their right to become a citizen.

I am against what they do (they being illegal immigrants sneaking in, and then getting services without paying into them), but I am VERY against making it a felony. I am for getting them up to speed so to speak, and taxpaying productive citizens like the rest of us.

I think we need to find a way to get them registered, and paying into the system like the rest of us do. Criminalizing them for an act that was perpetrated in desparation and in search of a better life? Wow.

I am the VERY first person to stand in line to slap the ever loving @#$@#@ out of people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their lives (welfare morons!!!). But that’s not what I see here. What I see is people who are doing crappy jobs, and living 25 people to a 2 BR apartment in order to try and give their kids a better life.

I hate that they are this invisible drain on our system. But that’s not their fault, that is the fault of our idiot government for allowing all of these giveaway programs. What they SHOULD be doing is providing “earn it” programs.

It’s not as if illegals are somehow “tricking” us into giving them all of these services. It is the agencies providing the services that are just giving away our tax dollars. The first step to stemming this huge bleed is to STOP GIVING IT AWAY! And second, when they come in to GET those services. Get their identities, and enforce registry, paying taxes and so on and so forth.

Pay for those enforcement agencies with the money saved by no longer giving away services and goods to people who aren’t citizens. Repeal the law that forbids employers from finding out if an employee is a citizen until AFTER he/she has been hired…and so on.

I’d better stop, my post is long enough.