Christ Jesus-- you really think pissing on the sidewalk is an “enormous problem?” Wow. Just . . . . wow.
I can open a newspaper to a random page and point with my eyes closed to a problem more serious than that, even in the entertainment section. Hell, I could probably find a worse problem with that on the* food* page.
That’s cool-- most of them are willing to work to support themselves. Even if they don’t pay taxes, that money gets circulated back into the economy through their purchases. In essence, illegals* give* people jobs, because more people have to be hired to serve them. Even a good portion of that money which is sent to Mexico ends back in American hands, because Mexicans buy a lot of American brand products.
Cite? How many illegals are on welfare? How many are habitually unemployed?
Well, they would if you’d let them.
Cite?
Pardon me, but you just keep coming back to spill more of these accusations into this thread, and ducking out rather than defending your assertions. You have yet to show, definitively, how you have been harmed by the presence of those people (who might not be illegal anyway because you have no evidence other than ethnicity to make that assertion.) You make vague claims about your neighborhood going to hell and people being afraid to let their kids out but I have yet to see any evidence that this is true.
You haven’t spent much time around American kids these days, have you? American kids think that the US has unlimited resources and should provide them with all of life’s necessities.
Mexicans watch American TV, too. They see the same message we do-- that if you work hard, are honest and good, you will be rewarded materially.
And I am offended by your use of “ignorant.” Likely, these people went to school and recieved a public education, just like your kids. You really do see them as savages, don’t you?
To me it looks incredibly childish, wholly offensive, and absolutely inappropriate to Great Debates. While I would agree that insults against Mexicans are not specifically racist, your insistence on throwing adjectives like “brown” into the mix indicates strongly that you are indulging yourself with ethnic insults, if not explicitly racist ones.
Beyond that, nothing you have posted recently contrinbutes to an actual discsussion or debate on the issues of immigration. If you want to whine that the wrong color of people are getting too close to you, take it to another board.
CBEscapee, the appropriate response to someoine who has stepped out of line is not to play into their error. You will also refrain from references to unnamed theird parites that are clearly associated with a participating poster.
While I would agree with the childish part (it was sarcastic), the rest of this is undeserved. So I ask you—in the most polite terms possible—try to keep your own personal bias about the issue out of your moderation. I know that my point of view on this issue irks you, so argue against it, as you have in the past.
Everything after your opening sentence shows the circuitous lengths you are willing to go to to stretch my post to meet with some board transgression.
I think he was quite professional, actually. And it’s not much of a stretch to say that derogatory racial comments are in conflict with Rule Number One. I also think his suggestion a valid one: there are plenty of boards where you will find roaring support for comments like those. In places dedicated to fighting ignorance and encouraging intelligent debate, it’s not welcome.
You know, the level of vitriol exhibited by some of you in this thread against human beings who are just trying to survive and feed their families makes me sick to my stomach. However much you would like to kick out people who enter the U.S. illegally, do you really have to dehumanize them to the point you are suggesting cold-blooded murder and/or techniques found on Saturday morning cartoons? That is, if you’re not talking about squishing them like cockroaches? I swear, I’d love to see how some of you would handle living in a village in the Guatemalan highlands with no indoor plumbing or healthcare. Or maybe you’d prefer somewhere more exciting, like Iraq, where there’s an actual war going on?
Anyway, just for kicks, let’s try sharing some actual information and exchanging some actual constructive ideas…
The US/Mexican border is the longest in the world between a developed country and a developing country. Yes, economics are the primary incentive for illegal immigration; I seriously don’t think the issue will ever get anywhere close to being resolved without addressing economic issues on the south side of the border (now that things are politically more stable in Central America, which has also provided a significant proportion of illegal immigration in recent decades. But then globally speaking, it’s not at all unusual for civil wars to produce large population dislocations within the region; just think how many Afghans took off for Pakistan and other nearby countries during the Soviet occupation and Taliban rule).
It’s practically impossible unless you already have an existing family relationship with a U.S. citizen or permanent resident, or a prearranged offer of employment for which there are not available, qualified U.S. workers after an extensive test of the labor market (which can take years in itself and cost thousands of dollars). Even if you do, the wait can be anywhere from a couple of years to a couple of decades, and the documentation requirements are a nightmare. Here’s info on annual quotas and backlogs, and if that doesn’t give you a headache, you have a higher tolerance than I do (and I do this stuff for a living).
So for example, a native of India whose job requires a bachelor’s degree and less than five years of related experience currently has to wait more than five years from filing the first stage in the green card process until he becomes a permanent resident, IF nothing gets held up, and IF his employer manages to prove the unavailability of qualified U.S. workers.
Anecdotally, I’ve served as a court interpreter/clerk for literally thousands of deportation hearings. There used to be a form of relief from deportation called “suspension of deportation”(which has since been drastically curtailed) in which, if you had been in the U.S. for at least 7 years, stayed out of trouble, contributed to your community, and could show that your deportation would create extreme hardship for a U.S. citizen or permanent resident family member, an Immigration Judge had the discretion to grant you permanent residence. One form of documentation provided was tax returns – the judges were VERY big on people paying their taxes. Almost without exception, people here illegally both work (on false documents or no documents) and have taxes withheld from their wages, but most never claim tax refunds for which they are otherwise eligible because they are afraid that the IRS and USCIS will share information (which, so far, they don’t). Given disproportionately low wages and large family sizes, that’s a net contribution to the U.S. Treasury. And that’s without counting Social Security/Medicare tax withholding from people here illegally that will never be claimed.
Illegal aliens (I hate that phrase, BTW) are not eligibleby law for most forms of nonemergency public assistance.
– A full 44% of the unauthorized immigrant population is not Mexican. 22% of unauthorized immigrants are from the remainder of Latin America, but that leaves another 34% from the rest of the world.
– The gender imbalance among adults isn’t as big as some of you believe; 58% are men, and 42% are women.
– Almost 2/3 of children in undocumented families are U.S. citizens by birth.
– If you look at the chart on p. 11, you will see that the proportional increase in unauthorized immigrants doesn’t vary as much by region of origin as you might think (though to my surprise, the numbers for the Caribbean have even decreased a tad).
– About 1/3 of the unauthorized families have U.S. citizen children.
I highly recommend reading the linked report, as well as others on the Pew site.
Strong language can be part of a substantive debate. And please explain to me (tom, you too), what is wrong with describing a group of people as having brown skin? It’s used all the time, as is black. Is something wrong with brown people? In both instances it was simply descriptive of those coming across the border. I didn’t use “Mexican” because, as we all know, they aren’t the only ones sneaking across it.
And by professionalism, I mean unbiased moderation. I hurled no insult to any poster, or Mexicans in general. In fact, I even took the opportunity in one post extol the many virtues of the very people in question. My invective was used to describe those who refuse to obey our laws. And sorry, but that makes me fucking mad. If the problem is that I used “fucking” for emphasis, then tell me that. But it has been used many times in GD, again, as a descriptor.
Now, I do regret allowing myself to be baited by someone who is always trying to label as “racist” those on the opposite side of the issue, someone who got his ass handed to him by virtaully everyone in a previous thread about the same issue. But the correct moderation call would have been to admonish the other guy for the personal insult transgression. If he then wanted to ask me to tone it down, fine.
I don’t think it is asking too much for a moderating function to be unbiased. Guess I’m wrong. Onward.
“But, maybe as a Mexican, you believe that the rules don’t apply to you.”
“Now maybe you can help me: I know very little Spanish, so could you tell me, does the Mexican strain of the language have word for backbone? Maybe you could look that up for me. As thanks in advance I’ll offer this advice, neighbor, if you ever feel like just flailing about, get yourself a good stick, a blindfiold, and a pinata. Eventually you’ll get something out of: CANDY!”
Sarcasm. I found it ironic that in a thread discussiing illegal immigration, that someone with his location listed as the country from which many of them come, someone who thinks they should be excused,would try to skate the rules.
Again, sarcasm. As this is GD and not the Pit, it is a way to communicate with pointedly. He was running away from his transgression, which might by some be construed as a lack of backbone. The last part points to his continued attempts (not just in this thread) to label anyone on the other side of the issue as a racist. On one page he brought up both blacks and the Nazi treatment of the Jews. Neither which have squat to do with the discussion.
My personal opinions have nothing to do with this situation. I doubt that this thread is redeemable, anyway, and I have no interest in taking sides in the overall debate. (Your defense of a particular bigot as not really racist raised my eyebrows, but not to the point of posting multiple arguments on the topic.)
Your claim that the Democrats want “brown” people assumes that the immigrants are, indeed, brown–an ethnic description that is not actually supported by the facts. (There are individual ethnic groups who may meet that description, but it hardly applies to all the people involved. Do you have an actual citation of a Democrat strategy targeting “brown” people?) If you choose to go off on wild mouth-foaming rants in the middle of a discussion and drag in ethnic descriptions just after posting and attempting to defend actual racist literature, then you are going to attract my attention as a Mod, regardless of your point of view.
(Actually, I was a bit surprised, since I have not pegged you as racist–and still do not–but your behavior over the last day and your personal attacks on CBEscapee (in a “nationalist” vein in post #238 and on his character in post #240) in conjunction with your other comments and your defense of Bimelow has done nothing to support my previous impression.)
I suspect that this thread is about to be put out of my misery, anyway, but I was hoping it would move back toward rational discussion without my having to do that.
You admit that there are individual ethnic groups who meet that description. That’s who I was talking about. But no, you haqve to try to contort that into something incorrect, so you attempt to conflate it with some larger point about democratic strategy that I didn’t mention or allude to. Then you ask for a cite that you know doesn’t exist. But you know darn well that votes is at least part of the motivation for the dems. Just as cheap labor AND, hopefully votes are motivating factors for the reps.
In a word: bullshit.
What you describe as wild mouth-foaming rants was relegated to a particular paragraph in that I wanted to be sure to convey the feeling behind the words. It broke no rule. If “fucking” as a descriptor is forbidden in GD, then fucking say so. And put it in the fucking rules. Aside from that I made many “less emotional” postings, as well.
And what racist literature did I post. If it is racist, it was posted by the other guy. I defended it to the extent to encourage others to read that article and others. And that one particular author does not equal the entire website. A fairer Mod might have poionted out that even if that one article or author was in fact racist, that does not mean the rest of the info on the site is as well. It was a lame attempt at an ade hominem fallacy: that site has some racist info, therefore everything on it is racist. Surprised that got by you Oh Fair One.
Or are you of the opinion that everything on the VDARE site is racist. If so, why haven’t you mentioned thios before. It is not the first time you’ve seen the cite. You weighed in in threads where my very cite was offered in evidence.
So I’ll add again, in a word: bullshit.
Good. So I’m a fucking racist. Whatever you say Oh Unbiased Moderator.
Why don’t you put it out of its misery? You have the power. What good is it if you don’t abuse it, right?
Ignorant: uneducated in general; lacking knowledge or sophistication; “an ignorant man”; “nescient of contemporary literature”; “an unlearned group incapable of understanding complex issues”; “exhibiting contempt for his unlettered companions”
Savage: barbarous: (of persons or their actions) able or disposed to inflict pain or suffering; “a barbarous crime”; “brutal beatings”; “cruel tortures”; “Stalin’s roughshod treatment of the kulaks”; “a savage slap”; “vicious kicks”
So, have a dictionary handy next time.
You have to learn to read my comments carefully and follow the line of reasoning, not just attack a sentence as if it’s not related to the prior one. I said here’s a story (link below) and it mentions, for example, peeing on the street, etc. Peeing was not of course the point, but then…obviously you didn’t really read what I said.
You attack my ideas in vast generalities and from a moralistic point of view. I’m off that and into the rational side of things so we really can’t debate.
You were talking about Mexicans. Mexicans do not equal “brown.” (Neither does the larger group of Central Americans.) “Brown” (when not being played as a race card) describes a distinct subset of people in Central America and Mexico.
I certainly agree that the Democrats hope to pander to more recent immigrants in the ways that Republicans hope to pander to the employers who want wages suppressed. (Of course, the actual immigrants cannot vote for quite a few years and none of the illegal ones can vote, but those are separate issues.) Seeking the immigrant vote–even when the immigrants originated in Mexico does not mean a “brown” vote. (I will concede that there are some people who characterize everyone South of the U.S. border as “brown,” but only when they are either playing the race card claiming the suppression of “brown” people or playing the other race card claiming that America is going to be drowned in “brown” people. The term does not seem to be simply descriptive in the way that “black” describes people whose ancestors lived in Africa.)
Everything on VDARE is racist. There are times that I have challenged specific claims provided from it and times I have dismissed it as simply too stupid for the effort to rebut, but there is nothing of merit on VDARE unless it has been coincidentally stolen from some other source.
I do not believe you are a racist. I believe that you have let your emotions run wild in the last day and you have posted some inflammatory stuff that presents a (probably false) image of you embracing some racist beliefs.
You were not called to task for being racist, in any event, but for a whole pattern of behavior (some of which you disingenuously describe as only sarcasm) that is not conducive to discussion so much as ranting.
I will pick my own times and places to abuse power, thank you. If I close this thread it will because serious discussion has fled before emotional outbursts, not because I agree or disagree with any perspective. If I were simply offended by various viewpoints, I could have intruded at any time in the last couple of hundred posts. You’ll note that you have already been told to calm down by another Mod, entirely, so it is hardly a matter of my inventing a reaction to your posts simply to promote my views.
As Unregistered Bull said, which of these definitions do you apply to Mexicans? Secondly, what evidence do you have that this nasty allegation is true? “Evidence” is in the “E” section of that dictionary, mind you, toward the end.
I read it. I saw nothing in that article even remotely approaching an “enormous problem.” Looked like to me the article was light on facts and heavy on insinuations. It appeared that the major issue the residents have is that there are a bunch of Mexicans hanging around-- oh, and some of them drank.
Thing is, dearie, most of what you’ve pointed to as “crisis” issues are the basic equivellent of pissing on the sidewalk. I have yet to see you provide any evidence that they are, indeed, destroying our country.
Thank you for my first laugh of the morning.
Rational? Rational? I have reviewed your posts to this thread, and I find reason (that’s also in your dictionary) extremely lacking.
What I do find is a bunch of alarmist, unsubstantiated allegations, exaggerations and blatant prejudiuce. You’ve claimed they’re trying to destroy our culture. You’ve claimed that they’re ruining our country to the point where America might not be there for your grandchildren. And, God help us all, you’ve made snide insinuations as to their intelligence and moral character-- people you don’t even fucking know. (Oh, that’s right-- you had a Mexican in your family and have found a few articles about criminals. Yep, that acurately gives you a picture of an entire people. Mm hm.)
I have spent a good deal of time pointing out why these things are wrong, which you ignore in favor of popping back in to make another sweeping, alarmist, unsubstantiated and prejudiced statement.
Debate, my dear lady, is when you say something, I reply why I disagree, and you reply with concrete reasons and evidence why I am mistaken. Then, I go back and do the same thing. Repeat ad nauseum.
Debate involves* facts*, which are sorely lacking in anything you have posted here. Your opinion is not a fact. What you’ve “heard” is not a fact. Your fear and suspicions are not facts.
Admitting that you have no facts at all to back up your accusations.
No problem has been proven, except that some folks don’t like illegal immigrants, primarily Mexican because, well because they don’t like Mexicans.
The bills aren’t finished yet in Congress. There is divide in the Republican party about this. The 32 to 26 bill passed the Arizona House, what has the Senate done, what will the governor do? Can a state enforce immigration laws that are stricter than federal immigration laws anyway?
No, but gathering all the things you have said about immigrants, it’s apt. You have expressed disgust at their culture, insulted their intelligence and portrayed them as mindless creatures hell-bent on destroying this country for-some-unknown-reason.
You did not answer why you feel that immigrants are ignorant. We’re waiting.
Actually, it appears you’re not interested un proving any of your assertions. No, I cannot demand proof for your personal experiences, but you cannot offer them as proof, either.
No-- I acknowledge that there are problems, but I am not willing to permit you to greatly exaggerate them without rebuttal. I have rebutted. All you have done is come back with more unsubstantiated, alarmist and prejudiced allegations. If you can back them up, do so. Otherwise, stop it. You’re doing yourself no good.
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I have no vested interests. I was born in this country, as was every member of my family, and every friend that I have. I don’t work with any immigrants (unless you count the director of the museum in which I work who was born in Italy.) The area in which I live currently has very few immigrants, but I have lived in areas with high populations of them.
No, my only interest in this issue is fighting ignorance.
And what, exactly, does that prove? Congress also made alcohol illegal at one time. I guess you didn’t bother to read the long post I made about the government trying to appease the people.
It works something like this:
Step One: Find “hot button” issue.
Step Two: Exaggerate harm from issue to get the public good and scared.
Step Three: Claim you have solution to problem.
Step Four: Make sure ramifications won’t become apparent until long after you’ve left office.
Oh, and I did note that you didn’t adress my points yet *again, * nor did you bother to back up your previous points. Is that because you can’t? I’ll make a helpful list of them, in case you can’t remember:
PROVE that immigrants are “ignorant.”
PROVE that they are trying to destroy American culture.
PROVE that their intent is just to leech as much out of the system as they can.
PROVE that they are all criminals.
PROVE that they are immoral and that their families only stay together out of fear of social dissaproval.
PROVE that they “hate” America.
You’re relatively new, so I’m willing to make some allowances since you may not know how things work around here. See, you have to prove your point by providing evidence to back it up, otherwise you will get your ass verbally kicked every time. We’re a skeptical bunch, and very attuned to the scientific method.
If that doesn’t suit you, there are dozens, nay, hundreds of boards where you can go make statements like “Mexicans are trying to destroy American culture,” and get thunderous applause. Here, you’d damn sure better have something to back it up, or people will jump on you.
