What to do about immigration?

[magellan01]

@LonesomePolecat

I hear this constantly, but I’m immensely skeptical. My first full time job was taking care of profoundly retarded children and adults. Trust me, if you don’t think it’s dirty and dangerous to change a diaper on an angry 40-year-old man with the IQ of a 2-year-old, you don’t know what dirty and dangerous is. (Not to mention depressing.) I’ve washed dishes, mopped and swept floors, and cleaned surgery rooms. I used to get part-time janitorial work with a local janitorial service when I needed extra money. They haven’t hired me for several years now, and I understand their entire cleaning staff now consists of Mexicans–want to bet none of 'em are illegal?

Who do you think was doing these jobs before we had a flood of illegal immigrants?

Excellent post. The idea that Americans don’t want certain jobs is overblown if not completle incorrect. What is true is that they don’t want certain jobs for the depressed wages they pay. There are plenty of people out there out of work who would love those jobs if the market was able to naturally set the wage. I was young at the time, but I recall that NYC (I think it was) had a problem with trash. There weren’t enough garbage men. They raised the pay enough that there was a line of people vying for those jobs.

One unfortunate thing is that many of these menial jobs is where many teenagers learned what work meant. I was a gardner, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms at an amusement park (not fun), worked as a gopher on a construction site, put up signage, did roofing, painted. Many kids these days don’t have these opportunities because the jobs are taken by illegals. That’s not a good thing for us.

[Unregistered_Bull]

@magellan01

Many kids these days don’t have these opportunities because the jobs are taken by illegals. .

I seriously doubt that. Kids aren’t what they used to be. Besides the increased cost to hire unskilled, generally lazy (hey we are throwing out pure opinions, so why not) US workers surely would have an inflationary aspect to it not too mention the low quality of work that would result.

[magellan01]

@Unregistered Bull

I seriously doubt that. Kids aren’t what they used to be. Besides the increased cost to hire unskilled, generally lazy (hey we are throwing out pure opinions, so why not) US workers surely would have an inflationary aspect to it not too mention the low quality of work that would result.

You’re right. But I think that one reasons that “kids aren’t what they used to be” is because they’ve become coddled and don’t know what work means.

[treis]

Oh yeah, becuase kids have been hard workers in every. single. other. generation. Especially those in the 60s or 70s, workaholics I tell ya.

[magellan01]

@treis

Oh yeah, becuase kids have been hard workers in every. single. other. generation. Especially those in the 60s or 70s, workaholics I tell ya.

Yeah, as soon as I read my reply after it posted I saw that it was coming off as the grumblings of an old geezer. I do thing it’s great for kids to work some menial jobs, though, even if they suck at it.

[BrainGlutton]

@magellan01

I do thing it’s great for kids to work some menial jobs, though, even if they suck at it.

Wouldn’t you rather have them studying?

[magellan01]

@BrainGlutton

Wouldn’t you rather have them studying?

I think there’s room for both. Particulalry summers.

[Lissa]

@magellan01

One unfortunate thing is that many of these menial jobs is where many teenagers learned what work meant. I was a gardner, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms at an amusement park (not fun), worked as a gopher on a construction site, put up signage, did roofing, painted. Many kids these days don’t have these opportunities because the jobs are taken by illegals. That’s not a good thing for us.

That would be true only in those areas in with a high population of immigrants. Here, where I live, in Small Town America, there aren’t many of them.

[WillMagic]

From The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman:

…A policy of unrestricted immigration would bring us more than cheap unskilled labor. It would bring a flood of new skills, not least among them the entrepreneurial ability that has made Indian and Chinese emigrants the merchant classes of Asia and Africa. Once the new citizens become familiar with the language and culture of their adopted country, they will probably work their way into the great American middle class just as rapidly as did their preecssors of eighty years ago.

It is a shame that the argument must be put in terms of the economic or psychological ‘interest’ of the present generation of Americans. It is simpler than that. There are people, probably many millions, who would like to come here, live here, work here, raise their children here, die here. There are people who would like to become Americans, as our parents and grandparents did.

If we want to be honest, we can ship the Statue of Liberty back to France or replace the outdated verse with new lines, ‘America the closed preserve/That dirty foreigners don’t deserve.’ Or we can open the gates again.

[Lochdale]

It’s a complex issue to be sure and it’s been heavily debated here.

I do believe we need to enforce existing laws and punish those who hire (exploit) illegal labor. We need to remind the Mexican government of their duties to maintain their borders and not actively encourage its citizens to move north. We need to control the border, with troops if necessary.

We also need to do a LOT more to assist Mexico. To encourage land and legal reform in Mexico. To develop more meaningful tax invcentives to investment in Mexico and closer links with Mexican businesses. NAFTA is just not enough. Closing the border will not work unless it goes hand in hand with supportive policies towards Mexico.

[Lochdale]

@WillMagic

From The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman:

Just out of curiosity, who voted for the Statue of Liberty? Who voted to make the inscription/poem public policy without any possibility of modification or change? When was it codified into law? Nice Godwin-esque turn of phrase by Friedman there invoking the Statue of Liberty.

[zamboniracer]

@Lissa

There were about 120,000 illegal immigrants from Canada living in the US in 1996, …

The study you quote is interesting Lissa, if a bit dated (1996). Is there any more current information?

I also note that even in the study cited illegal immigration from Mexico was 2.7 Million, as opposed to 120,000 from Canuckistan, which means that there were 225 times more illegal Mexicans than ther were illegal Canadians. If we agree that there is an immigration problem it seems clear that a much greater part of the problem comes from south of the border than from the north.

[WillMagic]

@Lochdale

Just out of curiosity, who voted for the Statue of Liberty? Who voted to make the inscription/poem public policy without any possibility of modification or change? When was it codified into law? Nice Godwin-esque turn of phrase by Friedman there invoking the Statue of Liberty.

And your point is?

[Lissa]

@zamboniracer

The study you quote is interesting Lissa, if a bit dated (1996). Is there any more current information?

I know of no more recent data.

I also note that even in the study cited illegal immigration from Mexico was 2.7 Million, as opposed to 120,000 from Canuckistan, which means that there were 225 times more illegal Mexicans than ther were illegal Canadians. If we agree that there is an immigration problem it seems clear that a much greater part of the problem comes from south of the border than from the north.

Depends on what you consider the* problem *with immigration to be. If you consider people coming over to get jobs to be a problem, you’re right, but I consider security risks a far greater threat than a bunch of farm laborers.

[scotandrsn]

It amazes me that people still discuss the illegal immigrant problem in 20th century terms. The real post-9/11 world we need to be living in is one in which we cease stupidly congratulating ourselves on the openness of our borders.

That was a nice, time, sure, but it’s over. We need to be smarter than that now.

To the maximum extent possible, we need to know who is entering and for what purpose. We also need to make sure they leave once that purpose has been fulfilled.

Such security can get expensive. That means every incentive must be enacted toward keeping our country’s citizen’s wealthy, so that tax rates can be kept reasonably low. That means limiting the population. We can have a China-style single-birth enforcement, or we can cut down on the immigration flow, which means especially controlling illegal immigration.

We need to be fair. We fail to recognize far too many foreign political situations where a reasonable American could see a refugee’s request for amnesty as legitimate. Our foreign policy must reflect that, and we must recognize people who flee for their lives as doing so for legitimate reasons.

We also need to realize that some people are just looking for better income opportunities. Welcome! Here’s how you apply to become a citizen! Oh, you don’t want to be a citizen, you just want to hang around taking up space and resources and driving down wages for those who actually want to see themselves as part of this country? There’s the door. No amnesty, no “guest worker” programs. It’s a slap in the face to all who are so dedicated to the idea of American citizenship that they actually go through our legal immigration process, when we set up special dispensation for those who break our laws from the moment they set foot here.

What I currently save directly at the grocery store and on my restaurant tab can not possibly make up for the huge amounts I end up paying indirectly for the burden illegal immigrants place on our system. It is not a fair trade. If there were less of them, taxes might ease up, and I’d have a little more in my pocket to pay a few extra pennies for a head of lettuce.

What about those who are already here and have been here long term, without getting into trouble with the law? Bye. Pure and simple. You have US citizen children? If your country will take them, they can obviously go with you. Keep their papers in order so they can return to the US once they reach majority and decide to do so. Otherwise, there are plenty of childless American couples who might be willing to adopt them.

[drewbert]

Fight my ignorance, please. Can someone explain why it’s so difficult and/or unappealing to become a documented immigrant? I’m sure there’s a simple reason, but I’ve never encountered it.

[LonesomePolecat]

@drewbert

Fight my ignorance, please. Can someone explain why it’s so difficult and/or unappealing to become a documented immigrant? I’m sure there’s a simple reason, but I’ve never encountered it.

My understanding is that applying for a green card and/or a visa is a bureaucratic, Kafka-esque nightmare.

[LonesomePolecat]

@Lissa

Innocent until proven guilty, my friend. It’s unfair to assume some of them must have been illegal just because of their ethnicity. It’s much the same as looking at a group of black people and assuming some of them must be criminals.

This isn’t a court of law, and the “innocent until proven guilty” principle doesn’t apply. You do understand the difference between inference and deduction, right?

[LonesomePolecat]

In the recent demonstrations in Los Angeles, some demonstrators burned American flags and waved placards showing a map of North America with the United States crossed out. Illegal immigration isn’t simply a question of economics. Separatists are not an isolated fringe group in the Hispanic community. Many of the illegals who come here are not the least bit interested in becoming a part of our community, and some are openly hostile to it.

[LonesomePolecat]

@magellan01

Excellent post. The idea that Americans don’t want certain jobs is overblown if not completle incorrect.

Thanks. The thing that really infuriates me, though, is that I hear this line of crap from both liberals and conservatives.