What to do about immigration?

Security is not the only issue, as Fresno State classics professor Victor Davis Hanson states in his book Mexifornia: A State of Becoming . As Davis said in a C-SPAN Booknotes interview :

"My point was to convey to the Mexican immigrant community that we ourselves are schizophrenic about it. What do you do – for example, I talked to a farmer who employs illegal aliens and says, Well, nobody will work, and these people are the hardest-working people in the world, which they are. And then he says, But you know, I don`t want to go to this restaurant in Salma because – with my family because everybody takes their clothes off. They stand out in – with their boxer shorts, where the put their clothes in the washing machine. They sit there. And this is not civilized.

And I suggest to them, Well, if you pay them cash and theyre not legal citizens and they dont have the capital, then what do you expect them to do? So we`ve also created in California this aristocratic lifestyle for upper-middle-class Californians that would be not possible elsewhere, where we have literally millions of Californians whose lawns are cut by people who are here illegally from Mexico, whose children are watched, whose houses are cleaned.

But the problem with that is that these people dont just fly to Mars, as they would assume, given the wages that they get and given the status of which they enjoy, which they cant participate in the civic life of California, then we have to do something to bring – give them the advantages that we do. And that means entitlements. And we have a $38 billion deficit right now on an annual basis, and we`re starting to see the wages of that.

Theres a -- theres a cycle thats very disturbing we dont want to talk about. Somebody comes at 18 from Mexico, say from Huahaca, very young, robust male, happy. We give him $10 an hour to pour concrete. He says, This is 10 times more than I make in Mexico. Everybodys happy. But then, suddenly, were surprised when he would want to marry, have three children and get on his knees for 10 years. A knee goes out. A back goes out. An elbow goes out, and then what happens? These are no longer rite-of-passage jobs. Our children dont do them anymore. Theyre not considered a stepping stone while you learn English and gain education, but they become a perpetual job.

And then when youre 50 and youre hurt and you have a family, then your children, who have never been to Mexico, dont feel that America was such a great deal. They have no method of comparison, but they do see that their children -- excuse me -- their parents work for somebody far more affluent, and you get a range of bitterness. We have problems with graduation rates in high school. Four out of ten Mexican immigrants are not graduating, children of Mexican immigrants. Were having a problem with bachelor`s degree, only 7 percent.

And the employer then looks at this phenomenon and says, Well, dont bring somebody out who has a tattoo. Dont bring somebody out to the crew who speaks English. I want somebody from Huahaca whos a hard worker. So we just cycle people as if theyre commodities. And its really amoral, and we dont want to discuss it – left or right."

That lays it out the problem, security issues aside, very well I think.

My point is, it’s just an aspirational poem. It’s not law, it wasn’t voted upon and it’s rather subjective. Meaning, I don’t give it much intellectual weight in the current debate and it’s Godwin-esque to throw it in here as it retards a real discussion of this issue.

Yes, it was merely vacuous, arm-waving rhetoric. Unfortunately, it’s typical of the stuff that open borders advocates throw at the rest of us.

Difficult? Well, imagine a bureaucracy that requires three times as much paperwork as the IRS and operates with a quarter of the efficiency and you have the INS. Not only that, but there’s not a huge constituency that can demand Congress step in and reform it like there is with the IRS (where everyone hates them, but relatively few Americans have to deal with the INS so it’s not on the radar of most Congress critters).

As for unappealing, it’s not. Just about every illegal immigrant would absolutely love to be a legal immigrant. However, demand for legal immigration permits way outstrips the supply.

Actually it is “just” 22.5 times ore. I don’t think the point so much is Canada vs. Mexico as it is the focus on Mexico at the expense of all other illegal immigration.

My opjnion:

  1. Amnesty for those already here
  2. Easier to become documented to live an work in the USA
  3. Stricter enforcement of illegal immigration

Didn’t we have an amnesty 20 years ago? So every generation gets an amnesty? Sort of defeats the point a little doesn’t it?

Yes, and I also understand that there’s a fine line between prejudice and racism. I stand by my previous assertion that there’s little difference between this and thinking that a group of black people standing on the street must contain criminals. Sure, I guess you could justify it to yourself with statistics, but it’s still Not Cool.

Every generation gets amnesty if the government does a poor job of enforcing it’s immigration laws. I just don’t see the point of trying to force all these illegal immmigrants out of the country. I mean, I agree with Lissa to the extent that this is not really a big problem. What really worries you Lochdale? Do you honestly think that if the illegals are sent home the standard of living in the US wilgo up? To me it is more like scapegoating. As well as political deflection.

So, you’re not concerned with what’s true, we’re only concerned with what’s *cool * …

The nuns are going to revoke my grade school diploma for an error like that. :smack:

Perhaps I’m not making myself clear.

It may be true to say that one out of for black males have a criminal history*, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every black man like a potential criminal. Likewise, you may be able to prove through statistics that a certain percentage of those with Mexican heritage are here illegally, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every Hispanic as if they’re potential illegals.

Exchange “Not Cool” for prejudiced, or bigoted, or plain distasteful, if you will. The English language is rich in adjectives.

*This statistic is the matter for much debate.

Say what you will, the odds are pretty good that at least some of those guys were illegal aliens. All you are doing here is insinuating that I’m racist.

Calvin Coolidge, for one:

Blame him, and everyone who voted for him.

So National Monument’s now directly influence policy?

Very well then, should I be taken guidance from Fort Sumter (declared a national monument in 1948) and repelling the efforts of any Southerner from crossing the Mason-Dixon line?

Perhaps I should look to the Little Bighorn Battlefield (1946) and kill me some members of the US army or some Indians. I’ll be protected right?

I don’t think anyone has mentioned that many illegal immigrants are committing crimes, in addition to being here illegally. Consider the folowing facts (1, 2, 3) :

I think fewer people would have a problem with illegal immigrants if they weren’t commiting crimes also. If it were just as simple as honest people coming here to provide cheap labor, nobody would be upset. The problem is that not all of them are here to work, and earn an honest living. Many of them exploit social services, don’t pay taxes, and/or commit crimes. I don’t care where they are from, we need to account for every person that enters our country.

Not at all: see “fine line” in my previous post.

I am saying that claiming a group of Mexicans must contain an illegal is a prejudiced statement. The “odds” may be on your side, but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, in my book.

I think the wage deflation brought on by pressure from illegals is just as big a problem. Putting that aside though obviously you’re correct that criminal activity caused by illegal aliens poses a big problem. I’ll go you one further, it isn’t even just gang activity that’s a problem, it’s normal automobile accidents that turn into huge problems. Assuming Illegals who drive most likely drive without insurance, and assuming they get into the normal amount of traffic accidents that even otherwise law abiding people occasionally get into, then there must be a huge resulting increase in everyone’s auto insurance rates.

Baloney. Atzlan and the Mexican Movement are minority lunatic fringe groups. Now xenophobic conservative “news” sources might try to spin it that they are the norm on this subject, but it’s simply not the truth. It’s certainly not what I’ve encountered among illegal aliens. How are they openly hostile to a community anyway? Green, white, and red colors; they hablan español; open taquerías; have Bautista churches instead of Baptist ones?

Allow them to get driver’s licenses and insurance then. BTW lots of folks, even ‘brown’ ones speaking Spanish, aren’t insured and are citizens.

I didn’t attend any of the rallies and only saw snippets on the tv news, but I wouldn’t call CNN or MSNBC exonophobic news organizations. I saw a lot of red/green Mexican flags and NO red/white/blue American flags. (Also no Canadian flags.) As I started this thread with my gut reactions, my gut reaction to seeing all those Mexican flags was to say, “This is the United States of America. If you’re so proud of Mexico, why don’t you all go back there.”