I started reading that book once. The guy came off as such a strong bigot that I couldn’t continue. He may have some points, but he certainly seems an extremely biased individual. I guess that I’m the same way on this issue. This guy seemed to hate Mexicans where as I usually like them.
It’s not unlike the news to come out and focus on the most contreversial stuff. I still say that those opposed to a mass deportation, tearing apart families, financial ruin of some industries, creating 12,000,000 felons with a stroke of a pen, etc. are not a majority of people set out for making the US into Mexico.
You have a citation for that or just anecdotal evidence?
Not sure that diminished the validity of his points? I didn’t get that he was anti-Mexican at all.
Let’s move away from the Mexican issue and just focus on the sheer volume of people.
Most of the responses to this question seem to remain in the theoretical arena. How about more people who have had their lives directly affected by this flood of people from another country attempting to take over our economy and our lives? This is unprecedented. The Japanese or the Chinese in California were nothing compared to this. Besides, Asians are on the top of the list as far as intellectual ability and have a culture that promotes hard work and education. They have contributed immensely to America.
I was living in California when the existing illegals were allowed to become legal if they had lived here five years, etc. At that time it appeared to be no threat to anyone because when you looked around there were actually very few Mexicans in the general population. I was in favor of it then. Now, all these years later, the grandchildren of those people have now become the majority in the once small California town I once lived in; now we have groups of Mexican kids driving up and down the streets playing their loud music and fuck anyone who doesn’t like it; we have street shootings; we have gangs; we have a skyrocketing crime rate (it was nil before); older people are robbed in the mall parking lots at night by Enrique; we have a large incidence of hispanic spousal abuse because of cultural differences in this country in the way women see their roles; we have major problems in our schools because of the influx of Mexican students but no more money; massive demands on our two hospitals for free care.
I want this to stop. I pay a lot of taxes and the cities and counties and states say they have to cut everything. Federal money has dried up or been drastically cut. These people do not contribute enough though their small amount of taxes or SS to even begin to make up for what they take.
If we make the illegal Mexicans that are here now legal, what about their children? In the future non-Mexicans won’t have the ability to hold sway in the political arena. Have you ever noticed that the California government is literally run by Hispanics? My former Colombian daugher-in-law told my son, 15 years ago that she had become aware of an underground movement to take over the CA government simply by numbers. It didn’t take long; even if this was conspiracy BS, WELL it happened.
Take a drive across America on Rt. 80, Rt. 70, Rt. 40; and you tell me if there are not illegal Mexicans everywhere you look. When I drive across, as I have many times in the last 10 years, there are more and more. How do I know? Because there are many, many more than the amount that would have been allowed in legally. And an inordinate number of very young males.
So, I guess you can call me a racist. Or you can call me an American who would like the people that are “Americans” to have some say over who comes into their country, just like any other citizen of any other country.
Look at Canada. They have a system that delineates who is allowed in and they have no shortage of foreigners. They haven’t locked the doors. They just don’t allow people to come in because they don’t like it where they are.
Mexico is a failure. And now we think that the people that can’t even develop a system that works in their own country are somehow going to contribute to ours?
As far as fining employers who hire illegals, that law IS on the books. But the false documents they can buy on the street are so good that the INS doesn’t hold the employer responsible if they used “reasonable” care in assuring they were legal. So better technology is needed there.
I don’t worry about myself. By the time America as we know it is gone, my children and grandchildren won’t even remember what it was like.
If the government in the past had approached this the moral and proper way, it could have worked. Now it’s too late. We need the fence and the felony convictions and harsher penalties. And we need to change the constitution so that just because the child of an illegal is born here they are not automatically citizens. That was for another time and not for this situation.
I’m with the 80% who agree with me. http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060328-102545-2371r.htm
I dunno . . if you adjust for population, I’d say it was probably similar.
Besides, Asians are on the top of the list as far as intellectual ability and have a culture that promotes hard work and education. They have contributed immensely to America.
Exactly why is it a threat? Because they may outnumber white people? Why is that a bad thing?
My neightborhood is plagued by groups of white kids who do the same thing.
Wow-- I am impressed. I have never HEARD of a place which once had no crime. And now 100% of it it comitted by Mexicans? You don’t say!
Yeah, we have those same problems, but only about a dozen Mexicans. Our spousal abuse rate is very high (I used to volunteer in our local domestic violence shelter.) Just a few months ago, an elderly white guy was killed, and his home torched to try to hide the crime. The perpetrator turned out to be a young white guy.
Man, I wish we had the excuse of an influx of an ethnic group to explain our crime rates.
Same problems here, but in our area, it’s caused by white people having too many kids, and not having high enough incomes to give a suffecient tax base to fund the schools as they should be. And man-- every time I have to go to the hospital, the place is just PACKED with white people. Many of them don’t have insurance, so they go to the emergency room where they can’t be refused care.
My community has the same problem with poor white people.
Do you really think that the values of Mexicans are so different from yours that this could lead to some sort of crisis?
I dunno-- I don’t ask for their green cards.
Just what makes you an American, pray tell? Anglo-Saxon blood? My husband’s grandma hopped off the boat from Poland in the 1940s-- is he American enough? If so, won’t the grandkids of the Mexicans be just as American?
Actually, Canada’s asylum policy is much more lax than that of the United States. That’s why a lot of people are concerned about the vastly unwatched Canadian border.
Exactly how is an individual Mexican to blame for the failure of a government as a whole? How much blame do you bear for the failures of the Bush Administration? A Mexican citizen can only do what you and I can do-- vote.
If “America as we know it” requires xenophobia and latent racism, I say we’re well rid of it.
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You know, I’ve often wondered what would have happened if the Civil Rights act had been based on an opinion poll. 'Twas a time not so long ago that the majority of Americans felt that blacks were inherently inferior. Did the fact that the majority held that opinion make it right?
Why don’t you tell us the area you are from and perhaps we can compare crime rates?
Sigh. What’s with all the selfishness? What’s with all the hypocrisy?
You know and I know that most american citizens are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants (if you’re native american, please disregard this). And those immigrants were no better than the latinos you’re complaining about.
You have no moral right to deny entry to this country to those who come looking for a better life. You’re no better than them. You don’t DESERVE the privilege of living in a first world country any more than they do. You’re not smarter, you’re not prettier and you’re not nicer.
“Oh, but they enter Illegally!. That’s against the law, so it is! Aye! We can’t have that here!”
Screw that law! I piss on that law. It is a bad law that shames anyone who supports it. It is a corrupt law enacted by those who only seek to protect their interests and have no sense of decency, morals or values.
So support it if you wish but don’t you dare call yourselves christians, nice people, good persons or what have you. You are not any of those things.
I’m majoring in Computer Science and the current outsourcing of IT jobs to India, China and other places hurts me significantly. It will be hard to get a job and the salary will be a lot less than it would be otherwise. And it sucks for me but you know what? I’m not special and worthy. Those folks deserve those jobs just as much as I do and I’m not stupid and evil enough to think I’ve been wronged somehow.
You should count your blessings, learn to share and shut up. If you don’t like it here, go live in Guatemala or Zimbabwe. See how you like it there.
Now as far as economic and logistical concerns, they’ll all work themselves out. Just wait a century or three. Same goes for cultural assimilation. There are some issues that can’t be fixed in 10 or 20 years. Humanity would be a lot better off if we could act in accordance to that fact
PS: The law I mention is simply the aggregate of all existing anti-immigration laws.
For me, this whole thing is strange. I mean, I fully support free trade (of it all: land, labor, and capital), so I can’t help but support the people protesting throughout my fair city (and nation).
In fact, today thousands upon thousands of high school, middle, and even grammar school kids walked off of campus at 10 AM, all so that they could march to City Hall. The kids weren’t alone- parents, friends, and everyone else followed. Downtown was completely shut down. Schools, jobs, and government institutions (including the goings on at the court house) were shut down. I love when people use their rights :), so again, I support them.
At the same time, I can’t help but question how they (the protestors) are going about calling for change. While watching the videos on the news, I see thousands of people waving Mexican flags, screaming, “HECHO EN MEXICO!”, holding up upside down American flags, tearing up American flags, and crying for anarchy in this, the most unjust of nations. The news even showed people physically fighting Marines, who showed up to actually support the cause. I won’t lie, I got a bit of a twitch in my stomach when I saw the destruction of the flag and cries for anarchy. That said, I respect their right to protest in whatever way they think will help the cause.
I just wonder if, realistically, this type of protesting is going to get them anywhere they want to go- particularly in this lil’ ole county. The local news did a two hour, call in poll that asked if people supported President Bush’s proposed bill-- 70% said yes (yes, yes, yes! I am aware that this isn’t representative of the world’s greatest or most accurate poll, but I think it does reflect the feelings of the average Joe around here). Needless to say, the protestors have quite a hurdle to jump when it comes to convincing the people of this county to take their side.
I’m babbling here, but I just think that the protestors should be as peaceful as possible and as respectful as they can be, while still making their point. Politics is politics is politics. Tearing up flags, fighting, and screaming wont win much sympathy for a perfectly legitimate cause. Being peaceful, but holding their ground and telling the world that they just want a shot at the American dream . . . I think that would really help right now. I truly believe that, that is what Caeser Chavez would have done.
That said, Friday is Chaeser Chavez day. No school, lots of places closed. Friday will be an interesting day. Oh yes.
Do you? :dubious:
Bah, I can spell his name. Way to be disrespectful, Diosa. Sheesh.
I wasn’t the one making the assertion, you were.
Do the people who want total open borders ever see a limit to the number that should be allowed in? That is, is there ever a limit or would be ok for one billion people to move to the United States?
As for America being a nation of immigrants, well that’s true. Sort of. Mostly a nation of legal immigrants and a nation that limited or prohibited immigration entirely at various points during its history.
And, just because a nation was a “nation of immigrants”, does that mean it cannot ever change? Spain was once a theocracy, does that justify the overthrow of a secular government just becase Spain is a “nation of Catholics”?
Ok. How do you deport 12,000,000 people? Do we have enough professional law enforcement officers specializing in this to identify these 12,000,000 illegal aliens? Do we have the prison space for these 12,000,000 new felons? The courts, judges, and related personnel to process the deportation of these 12,000,000 people? Do we have the prison uniforms and shackles for these 12,000,000 people? Would all the resources, human, equipment, new prisons, money, etc. that this “Mother of all Deportations” would seemingly require be better utilized in actually securing the borders? Would from a cost/benefit ratio and from an actual securing the border situation, an amnesty for these people similar to the 1980s’ amnesty for the ones that have been here for such a long time that they’ve become an integral part to the US economy and culture and a focusing of all these extra new massive resources at stopping further illegal border crossings not be better? Sure vengeance wrought upon the 12,000,000 would satisfy many who hate illegal immigrants for legitimate or illegitimate reasons, but would it be in the best interest of the US? Moral issues about destroying their families, many of whom are US citizens, aside.
You’re right, that was LonesomePolecat. My apologies. But there is absolutely no proof of his accussations. You can choose to believe it if you want. I simply don’t. I try to fall into the believing half of what I see and nothing that I hear. I’ve never personally encountered an illegal alien or someone somewhat sympathetic to their plight that was one of these nutcases. OTOH I meet stringent anti-Mexican / anti-illegal immigrant people all the time that are pretty hardcore bigots with a strong paranoia streak. I’m sure that if the illegal immigrant side didn’t have these Atzalan/Mexia Movement types; you’d probably take in the movement in a less harsh manner. If I weren’t exposed to so many folks IRL and on the internet that were simply xenophobic and at least somewhat bigoted on the anti-illegal immigration side, I probably would take that side more seriously. I don’t mean to imply anyone here of course.
I don’t think you need to. My enforcing existing laws, securing the border and cracking down on companies that employ illegals I think you will see a lot of them going back to their home countries. If they can’t draw welfare or find a job then they aren’t going to hang around. They had enough get up and go to get here so I think they’ll have enough initiative to head back.
Again, this is all in concert with a secure border, the enforcement of immigration laws such that if you are found to be here illegally you are deported (after all, we don’t arrest every drunk driver or pot smoker, just the ones who are caugh) which will have a knock-on affect within the immigrant communities.
Also, once we also need to crack down on employers who hire (exploit) cheap immigrant labor.
Wishful thinking.
Same thing.
And figure this out, I agree on this, but really the best approach is to -besides using the stick- one has to use a carrot, and the carrot is what is being discussed in congress right now, BTW it is not really an amnesty as much as the opponents claim, fines and compliance with the law will be required to remain in the USA.
So do you propose that we do nothing? It has to start somewhere and this is a good start. Some real investment in Mexico (perhaps a little less involvement in Iraq and some low-interest loans to Mexico could get things started) wouldn’t hurt either.
Hit the submit button too quickly!
The problem with the carrot and stick approach is that the fines are de minimus and don’t really discourage future illegals. Put another way, if jumping the border results in such a paltry fine, where’s the disincentive to break the law?
I did say early in the thread that it was curious that even when a solution is being discussed in congress **right now ** it is funny that oponnents act like if it is not there.
I already said that I agree with more enforcements, BTW the Senate and the President are now with the carrot, the House of Representatives already came with the stick, we have to pay attention and presure goverment to do the right thing.