Just a little MPSIMS, but I just looked at MSNBC’s photos of the protests. Lots of US flags. I know that they aren’t Fox or Worldnetdaily, but…kidding, kidding, kidding 
Well, I can speak for what I saw on my college campus (a couple thousand people) and on the streets around town: lots and lots and lots of Mexican flags, a few American flags throughout-- but a good chunk of those American flags were being torn up or held upside down. I later saw the same thing on the local news footage.
Granted, it might not be like this all over the country, but this area seems to be the hotbed right now. After all, this is where the UFW is based (well, right around here) and they are a huge part of the protesting.
I haven’t read the whole thread, but I’m wagering someone in this thread has said “they do the jobs Americans won’t do, we need them to do low-paying jobs or the economy will suffer.”
Baloney. Illegals don’t work for sub-standard pay. They get paid more than Americans, because Americans working the same job get taxes taken out. Illegals get paid more!
The employers of illegals hire them because then they can avoid taxes, unemployment insurance, disability insurance, etc. The reason we encourage illegals is so business owners can get richer. That’s it.
You don’t have to make all employees make a fair pay. They already get it. Make all employers pay taxes on all their employees, whether they’re legal or not. You’d see illegals go bye-bye overnight.
(Emphasis mine.)
This is absurd. Even when they do these things you support them? So, tell me, is there anything they could do that would cause them to lose your support? Anything? How about if they started beating up white people randomly? Still okay? How about if they start killing marines, or police officers? Still okay with you because they think it will help the cause?
By the busload. And as Lochdale pointed out. If we take the right steps and start to enforce the law and prosecute those who hire illegals, many will go back. Similarly, we can develop some laws that encourage people to go back. For instance, if announce that we are going to start making arrests and deporting people. And if you are one of the people who get grabbed, not only do you go back—immediately—we confiscate all your valuables. I think you’d see a mass exodus after relatively few actual arrests and confiscations.
These two things alone would do much to solve the problem. Add a wall at the border and we’ll have something that starts to look like a country with borders again.
Yup, that’s exactly what I was saying. Actually, you articulated my point better than I did.
I support the spirit behind what they are trying to accomplish. As I said, later in that same post, the way they are protesting isn’t going to do a damn thing. Tearing up flags wont win over anyone to their side that they are trying to woo. I am already on their side- politically- so they don’t have to win me over. That said, they could certainly push me away if they keep up this type of stuff (and I’m sure that the same could be said for other sympathizers).
Like I said, the flag stuff disgusts me. I certainly don’t like EVER hearing someone cry for anarchy. I also don’t think they are accomplishing much through this form of protest. But I respect their right to free speech/protest/ whatever.
If they start beating up people, they should go to jail. Every offender, by the truckload.
Killing marines or police officers? They should go to jail. Every offender, by the truckload.
I think we can draw a line between protesting, chanting, and holding up flags . . . and killing police officers or randomly beating people.
Right now, what they are doing is perfectly legal and within their rights. They are certainly pushing things, but they are still within the bounds of Constitutional and civil law.
Wishful thinking again.
And lawsuits by the millions.
And the the king will get the muffin man too!
You know, I’ve often wondered what would have happened if the Civil Rights act had been based on an opinion poll. 'Twas a time not so long ago that the majority of Americans felt that blacks were inherently inferior. Did the fact that the majority held that opinion make it right?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah! how dare our leaders propose solutions that are right but unpopular right now!
Yeah, but you gotta start somewhere.
New law: if you’re an illegal immigrant you can’t bring suit in a U.S. court? There. Problem solved. Next.
And if he’s here illegaly throw him out to. But seize all the muffin tins.
Seriously, it’s very easy to throw up our habds and say,w-w-wh-why it’s impossible! It is is we don’t have the will. Th U.S. did the near impossible when storming Normandy. We put a man on the moon. Rudy cleaned up NYC. We can do the impossible. All we need to do is set out to do it. The old saw is true; where there is a will, there is a way.
Not so fast Kimosabe, half of the relatives are citizens already.
I’m afraid the solutions you propose are still coming from fantasy land.
Like I said before it is funny that you guys deny that a different solution is at hand.
And it is already in the hands of the ones that proposed the solution being discussed in congress right now.
A while ago, virtually the same solution was proposed by me, back then basically you said that the solution deserved no notice, try again to show why we should even consider putting your solutions in the mature fiction area instead of the fairy stories.
Lissa, you have attempted to discredit my opinion and my personal observations by using sarcasm and calling me a racist, etc. I’m a racist then. So what’s your point? It’s faulty logic to counter my statements by saying “Well, YOU do it too” (nanner, nanner, nanner) and then to exaggerate e.g. now all crime is committed by Mexicans. Sigh. I have lived all over the United States and have dealt with people of all races and all walks of life. I’ve personally observed some things that I blame on the influx of people who have come into my country illegally and strained it’s resources, raised the crime rate, and tried to impose their cultural mores on top of mine. A large number have little interest in integrating and HATE Americans; the reason Mexico is loath to have us try to stop this influx is because they send to Mexico over thirty Billion dollars a year. What are your direct experiences may I ask? I have two nurses in the family who will attest to the large numbers of Mexicans who flood the emergency room (because they don’t have insurance) and take beds that those who can pay are denied. Yes, those who actually work and have insurance. Am I suggesting we don’t care for them? Yes. Then they won’t come back when their network gets the word out all the free services are gone. Maybe they will stay in their own country and try to make it better. I have an ex family member who is Hispanic so I know the Hispanic culture through her. A small window into a way I do not want to relate to the world. Yes, the small farming town’s crime rate was “nil” (almost non-existant) not non-existent. People were hard-working and supported each other. Now that’s all gone. I’m sorry you have white boys doing the same thing. That doesn’t make the Mexicans vanish. I’m not responsible for them being poor. I’m not responsible for supporting them. I’m not rich. I’m not compromising my life and that of my family for them. If you want to then why don’t you just give them the money directly and take me out of the pipeline? They have absolutely no right to come over our borders without our permission and then expect to be supported by the citizens of this country. And I define American as ME; I’m an American. I don’t want to be in the minority because then my way of life and my mores and my culture will be subject to change over a very short period of time, not gradually, as is the usual case. And by the way, Indians are not the original Americans (another argument), but there is plenty of recent proof that they came here long, long after other humaniods. There is nothing you can say to guilt me into being a bleeding heart about this issue. I have the feeling you have not been hit where it hurts yet and are standing in the wings moralizing. And by the way, I am old enough to have seen the pendulum swing from the terrible discrimination in the South to the opposite where all reason in this issue was lost and Racist became a feared word. How can one culture taking advantage of another be good? How can it be good that Mexicans swarm across the border and take advantage of the largess we have in this country? I’ll share, but you have to play by my rules e.g. immigrate legally, or no way Jose!
After what you posted suezeekay it is hard not to see that you have a deep prejudice against… paragraphs. 
suezeekay the solution is to make some changes in the law, make former illegals pay a fine, make them follow the law and then make them Americans after they show they are worthy. The laws are going to change. And also more enforcement will come.
But we can prevent a bad problem from becoming worse. Citizens stay. Everyone else goes. What’s that your child is a citizen. Fine he can stay or go. Next.
Also, from here on out, no more anchor babies.
It makes me very afraid and very sad that you are probably right. BUt we’re not done with yet. Contact your chickenshit congressman today!
Can oyu be more specific. “They” are discussing many things about immigration. Who , specifically are you referring to? What was your idea? Can you refesh my memory
Because they would fix the problem. To summarize, in no particular order:
- Enforce laws against employers.
- Encourage investment in Mexico. It shold be one of the world’s cheap manufacturing destinations.
- Lock down border 100%: wall, more guards, etc. Enough to have a realistic goal of zero illegals sneaking in.
- Immediately change the law (14th (?) amendment) that naturalizes people at birth
- Start arresting illegals and deport them immeditialy
- Devise some law that allows for the confiscation of property unless illegals are on the way back to Mexico (it was a joke, but now I think it was brilliant)
- Revise immigration laws to make it easier for people to come her legally
- Tell Vicente Fox to go fuck himself and start fixiing his corupt country
:rolleyes:
Unless you can point to that as part of what the draconian House proposed, I just have to say everything you propose will remain fiction forever, and not even calling your representative will help.
The only thing I need to say to refresh your memory is that the solution coming from the Senate and the President is similar to an amnesty but on the other thread you just said it was a horrible idea. Funny thing that your ideas there and here are not even considered by your leaders, but my idea with the best human solution is.
Well, your book badly needs an update.
There are hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico living in my state; in fact, **most ** of the Mexicans living in my state are illegal. Illegal aliens from Mexico generally do such unskilled labor as janitorial work. If I see a group of Mexicans who are doing janitorial work in my state, there is a very high probability that at least some of them are illegal.
That isn’t prejudice. That’s just general knowledge and common sense. Dismissing it as prejudice is just a dishonest way of refusing to deal with facts that are inconvenient to something you would like to believe.
What’s with the self-righteousness? I’m sorry the rest of us haven’t achieved moral and intellectual perfection as you so obviously have, but perhaps if you had some patience and showed some respect for us we might actually listen to you.
But we’re not a frontier society any more, and we don’t have a rapidly expanding industrial economy like we did in the 19th and early 20th centuries. We simply can’t absorb huge waves immigration today as we did in the past.
Get off your high horse. No country can reasonably be expected to absorb unlimited immigration, and only an utter fool would insist that we should. The policies you’re advocating here will only lead to disaster–but it’s pretty clear you don’t really care anything about the practical consequences of your principles.
I don’t have to immigrate to Guatemala or Zimbabwe. All I have to do is wait long enough, and the sanctimonious fools who advocate an open border policy will turn the United States into an impoverished Third World dictatorship. Hell, California is halfway there now.
So if the greedy racist white Americans would just stop being so selfish and hypocritical, everything will be all right. Yeah, sure. Here’s a clue–John Lennon’s “Imagine” is just a foolish and naive song, not a practical philosophy.
The contempt and seething hatred you show for your countrymen is sickening.
You’re kidding, right? You’re holding up the fact that the Senate and the President might agree with you about immigration as proof that is a good idea? You do know about somehting called Appeal to Authority is? Or Argumentum ad Populum? Take your pick.
Sorry. But both you and George Bush are wrong on this one. It is a bad idea for all the reasons that I and others have discussed before. Here’s a quick recap: it is unfair to those who have been trying to enter the country legally, it rewards law breaking, and encourages people who might want to live her in the future to figure out a way to get into the country no matter what. i.e., illegally. It also makes a mockery of the idea that America is a land of laws. More like a land of political cowardice and reelection expedience.
But I’ll try to remember your “I’m right because Bush agrees with me” rationale. It should make for infinite fun in the future.
Sarcasm, yes, but I never once called you a racist.
Well, I guess if you don’t see anything wrong with it, there’s not much I can say in response to that.
No, I think that it’s a simple way of pointing out your fallicies. I can’t help but roll my eyes when someone says something along the lines of, “We never had any crime until [racial group] moved into the neighborhood.” Not only is it almost always patently false, it’s grossly unfair.
Personal “observations” are not evidence. I, too, have l;ived all over the country, including South Texas, where the population of people of Hispanic descent is very high. Funny how our “observations” have been different. Me, I see a bunch of hard-working people who never once tried to impose their culture on me. (Unless, of course, you count the siren call of excellent Mexican resturants.) And even if they did try to intertwine their culture and ours, what’s the problem? I think one of the things that has made this country the fine place it is today is multi-cultralism.
Cite? I’ve met a fuck-load of Mexicans in my time, and never once has one of them told me they “hate America.” Methinks you may be projecting.
And perhaps it’s because the Mexican government doesn’t have the funds for enforcement. They’re not exactly a wealthy contry, as you pointed out, and they do have more pressing problems.
White people do the SAME THING. Why is it extra-bad when people of Hispanic descent do it? As I said, my local hospital is* choked* with poor white people.
Or, maybe they’ll just bleed to death in the streets. But who cares, right? And maybe theire kids won’t get vaccinations and start a pandemic, but we don’t need to worry about that until white people start being affected. For a person with two nurses in the family, you should be aware that viruses mutate.
Frankly, I don’t believe you. If that community was so loosely cohesive that the influx of immigrants could stop them from being “hard working and supportive of one another” you have greater problems than immigration.
Ya know, people say the same things about welfare.
Exactly how are they “threatening” you? Afraid your kids might start speaking Spanish and asking for chimichangas for supper? You might be shocked to hear this, honey, but “American Culture” is already a mutt-- we’ve taken bits and pieces from every culture in the world and we will continue to do so.
Supposition is not proof. The fossils that you refer to are a matter of debate amongst scholars. Suffice it to say that even if earlier peoples did come, they either died out, or melted into the Native American population. Whether or not they were the very first peoples to get here is completely irrelevant. They were the ones who stayed and thrived.
If you’ll pardon me for saying so, I’d imagine you’re the kind of person who doesn’t change their minds very much on anything, regardless of what others say.
As I said, I lived in South Texas-- right on the border, actually. (McAllen.) My family still owns property there, and we frequently go down there for long visits.
But you’re right, I haven’t been “hit where it hurts” by seeing lots of Hispanic people around. Frankly, I doubt I’ll ever be. Sure, I may someday be the victim of crime, but I’m adult enough not to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few.
All reason has been lost? You’ve got to be joking, right? “Racist” *should *be a feared word, and people who hold racist views *should * be scorned.
To whom are you referring? The farmers and other employers who exploit cheap Mexican labor? Well, every time you go to the grocery, reject those cheaply-farmed fruits and vegetables, and instead, buy them from local farmers or grow your own. And while you’re at it, stop buying cheap products Made in Taiwan. Neo-colonialism is exploitation, too.
Or, if you’re referring to people who come over here to work, take a good, hard look at your own family tree before you do. Likely, you have someone who came over just for that reason. I know I do, and so does my Pollack hubby. (His family has been trying to change my culture every Christmas with their poperkash and pierogie.)
You might have a leg to stand on if you actually included all the illegal immigrants, including the white ones. The Hispanic ones are picking vegetables and cleaning hotel rooms, while the Canadians are getting jobs in IT.
Hmm. Considering that you think every Hispanic person you see must be an illegal, hell-bent on somehow destorying American culture, and are the cause of all crime, I somehow doubt that.
No, it is prejudice. When you see a group of Mexicans you are* pre-judging* them with no evidence other than satistics. It is the exact same thing as if I see a group of black men on the corner and cite statistics to say one quarter of them must be criminals.
There may be a very high probibility that they are illegal, but unless you PROVE it, you cannot lable them fairly.
It’s not a matter of what I’d “like” to believe. For me, it’s a matter of simple politeness-- I don’t make gross assumptions about people based on their ethnicity. I don’t avoid blacks because they may be criminals, and I don’t walk up to random Asians with math problems because I assume they’ll be smart. Likewise, I don’t consider all people of Hispanic heritage to be illegals unless I see proof that they are.
Yes, if I see a Mexican working in a field, there’s a chance he COULD be illegal, but I’m not going to ASSUME that he is just based on his ethnicity. Again, innocent until proven guilty. This may not be a court of law, but it doesn’t excuse prejudice. Stereotypes may have a basis in fact, but that makes them no more palatable if you use them to make judgements about people without knowing the facts.