What to do about immigration?

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=Lissa]
No, it is prejudice. When you see a group of Mexicans you are* pre-judging* them with no evidence other than satistics.
[/QUOTE]

We do that all the time. Insurance companies make a living that way. Given the statistics it is very likely that a group of Mexicans contains one or more illegal aliens. Is it wrong to use common sense particularly when it is backed up by reliable statistical evidence?

You basically want people to walk through life with blinders on and dismiss whatever common sense we may have. I’m delighted that you find life to be such a peaceful, pleasant place. Good for you. That does not mean, however, that you can accuse people of prejudice just because they exercise good judgment that has a rational basis in reality. WHy not just debate the issues and leave the finger pointing out of it?

102

[QUOTE=Lochdale]
And, just because a nation was a “nation of immigrants”, does that mean it cannot ever change? Spain was once a theocracy, does that justify the overthrow of a secular government just becase Spain is a “nation of Catholics”?
[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you walk down to your local reservation and ask how legal your ancestor’s immigration was. At least there are no Mexicans putting bounties on Anglo scalps.

-Jennifer, posting from the near third world dictatorship of Oakland, CA.

103

[QUOTE=Lochdale]
We do that all the time. Insurance companies make a living that way. Given the statistics it is very likely that a group of Mexicans contains one or more illegal aliens. Is it wrong to use common sense particularly when it is backed up by reliable statistical evidence?

You basically want people to walk through life with blinders on and dismiss whatever common sense we may have. I’m delighted that you find life to be such a peaceful, pleasant place. Good for you. That does not mean, however, that you can accuse people of prejudice just because they exercise good judgment that has a rational basis in reality. WHy not just debate the issues and leave the finger pointing out of it?
[/QUOTE]

I realize that there are a lot of emotional connotations to the term “prejudice.” I am not using it in a necessarily derrogative fashion. I use it as a term which describes the practice of “pre-judging without concrete evidence.”

We all do it, you’re right. If I see a man pushing a stroller who leans down to kiss the baby, I pre-judge that man to be the child’s father. If I see a guy running like a bat out of hell from a bank with a bag of money in one hand and a gun in the other, I pre-judge him to have robbed the bank.

It gets into dangerous territory when you use pre-judging on a group as a whole with derogatory purposes. While it can have practical uses, such as in calculating insurance risks (i.e young males will have higher rates than young females) it can also have nasty implications.

Where I see the difference is that you’re accusing* individuals *of wrongdoing (immigrations violations) simply based on their ethnicity. Yes, there are many law-breakers, but it doesn’t mean every individual of that class is guilty.

104

[QUOTE=even sven]
Why don’t you walk down to your local reservation and ask how legal your ancestor’s immigration was. At least there are no Mexicans putting bounties on Anglo scalps.

-Jennifer, posting from the near third world dictatorship of Oakland, CA.
[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you walk down and ask them how beneficial mass immigration was for the Native American?

105

[QUOTE=Lissa]
I realize that there are a lot of emotional connotations to the term “prejudice.” I am not using it in a necessarily derrogative fashion. I use it as a term which describes the practice of “pre-judging without concrete evidence.”

[/QUOTE]

The thing is, we have statistics that support such a judgment. So while you may not be using prejudice in the pejorative sense it’s still no applicable here. Reasonable judgment is the correct phrase.

I don’t think anyone is earmarking individuals for censure. It’s not about who is guilty but about making reasonable judgments based on statistics and actual knowledge. It’s a little dangerous when you allow emotion to trump logic.

106

[QUOTE=magellan01]
You’re kidding, right?
[/quote]

Back to fantasy land I see.

I thought the context would suffice, but no.

Neither, I’m pragmatic, the solution the president and senate want are right now is not popular, the arguments will be discussed now. You are pretending I’m appealing to authority, nope, only to the fact that those proposals are being considered now, yours are not even passing the smelling test. Even if you don’t like it you have to deal with those ideas, your solution of dodging the issue just because you repeat they are bad ones just means you are just irrelevant.

The proposal is not an amnesty, and there are consecuences to those that entered illegaly. this is why one concludes you are not only just proposing fiction, but ignoring real solutions on purpose.

Fairy stories are fun, I grant you that.

107

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Also, from here on out, no more anchor babies.
[/QUOTE]
How do you propose to do that? It is very difficult to amend the Constitution (as well it should be), and that is what will take to deny citizen ship to someone born on American soil.

108

[QUOTE=Lissa]
No, I think that it’s a simple way of pointing out your fallicies. I can’t help but roll my eyes when someone says something along the lines of, “We never had any crime until [racial group] moved into the neighborhood.” Not only is it almost always patently false, it’s grossly unfair.
[/QUOTE]

But, as you allow for, maybe it is the truth in her experience. If it is true, is it still a grossly unfair characterization. No, it’s not.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
I think one of the things that has made this country the fine place it is today is multi-cultralism.
[/QUOTE]

I would agree to a degree. I would use the term multi-ethnic. And the reason why it has done so well ocver timeis that there was the American culture for people to assimilate into. It gives us a commonality, as diverse as we might be.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
And perhaps it’s because the Mexican government doesn’t have the funds for enforcement. They’re not exactly a wealthy contry, as you pointed out, and they do have more pressing problems.
[/QUOTE]

Do you really mean to imply that the reason that Mexico hasn’t comttrolled emmigration through its northern border is that they don’t have the money to do so, bu they do have the will? You can’t be serious. You may want to read some of the speeches by the head of the wonderfully corupt nation.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
White people do the SAME THING. Why is it extra-bad when people of Hispanic descent do it? As I said, my local hospital is* choked* with poor white people.
[/QUOTE]

The color of the skin is accidental to the argument. It’s a problem because, most likely, the white people are citizens, here legally and the brown ones aren’t. If there was a community with thousands of illegal Irish people and they were tapping into out system I’d be just as upset and just as anxious to send them the fuck back.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Or, maybe they’ll just bleed to death in the streets. But who cares, right? And maybe theire kids won’t get vaccinations and start a pandemic, but we don’t need to worry about that until white people start being affected. For a person with two nurses in the family, you should be aware that viruses mutate.
[/QUOTE]

Great reason to 1) get the out and 2) make sure that those who come here legally are free of disease. You know kind of like the did at Ellis Island during the the great wave of LEGAL immigration.

Oh, and “…bleed to death in the streets.” Nice appeal to emotion, as dishonest as it might be. Please point to one poster—or anyone—who as advocated denying illegals life-saving emergency care.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Frankly, I don’t believe you. If that community was so loosely cohesive that the influx of immigrants could stop them from being “hard working and supportive of one another” you have greater problems than immigration.
[/QUOTE]

Why, why is the problem not the immigration?

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Supposition is not proof. The fossils that you refer to are a matter of debate amongst scholars. Suffice it to say that even if earlier peoples did come, they either died out, or melted into the Native American population. Whether or not they were the very first peoples to get here is completely irrelevant. They were the ones who stayed and thrived.
[/QUOTE]

Or maybe they were conquered by what you call the Native Americans. Right?

[QUOTE=Lissa]
But you’re right, I haven’t been “hit where it hurts” by seeing lots of Hispanic people around. Frankly, I doubt I’ll ever be. Sure, I may someday be the victim of crime, but I’m adult enough not to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few.
[/QUOTE]

But are you adult enough to see that a governmental policy that turns a blind eye to illegal immigration, thus encouraging it, causes real problems for Americans.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
“Racist” *should *be a feared word, and people who hold racist views *should * be scorned.
[/QUOTE]

Yes. But who is a racist. The issue is ILLEGAL immigration, not Mexican immigration.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Or, if you’re referring to people who come over here to work, take a good, hard look at your own family tree before you do. Likely, you have someone who came over just for that reason.
[/QUOTE]

Just checked my family tree. Four poor immigrants. All came here legally. You do know the difference between the words legal and ilegal, don’t you. If not, you may want to check.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
You might have a leg to stand on if you actually included all the illegal immigrants, including the white ones. The Hispanic ones are picking vegetables and cleaning hotel rooms, while the Canadians are getting jobs in IT.
[/QUOTE]

You are correct. Except no one has been arguing against this point. The point is ILLEGAL immigration. Period. Doesn’t matter if you’re white brown or purple.

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Hmm. Considering that you think every Hispanic person you see must be an illegal, hell-bent on somehow destorying American culture, and are the cause of all crime, I somehow doubt that.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not what she said. I do not gather from her posts that that is what she thinks either. You are mischaracterizing her position.

109

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
How do you propose to do that? It is very difficult to amend the Constitution (as well it should be), and that is what will take to deny citizen ship to someone born on American soil.
[/QUOTE]

As I noticed in the other thread on birthright citizenship, he does not care about questions like “But, Who Will Bell the Cat?”, His solutions are irrelevant.

110

[QUOTE=magellan01]
But we can prevent a bad problem from becoming worse. Citizens stay. Everyone else goes. What’s that your child is a citizen. Fine he can stay or go. Next.
[/QUOTE]

So what do you so with all of the minors that are US citizens? Force them to leave the country of their birth, where they have the same rights YOU have?

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Enforce laws against employers.
[/quote]

American citizens wouldn’t put up with that. They aren’t about to do anything that will have a negative impact on THEIR lives.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
It shold be one of the world’s cheap manufacturing destinations.
[/quote]

Brilliant! Stunningly brilliant!! Drive down wages so there is an even larger gap between living standards in both countries. Yep, that’ll sure discourage anyone from trying to sneak into the US.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Tell Vicente Fox to go fuck himself and start fixiing his corupt country
[/QUOTE]

Yes of course. Unilateral decisions are always the best way to solve problems between 2 countries.

111

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
So what do you so with all of the minors that are US citizens? Force them to leave the country of their birth, where they have the same rights YOU have?
[/QUOTE]

As I wrote, they can stay OR go. If their parents are illegal, the minors can either stay with relatives or go back with their parents. Leave it up to the minors and their parents.

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
American citizens wouldn’t put up with that. They aren’t about to do anything that will have a negative impact on THEIR lives.
[/QUOTE]

You might be right. But I think things are changing. I actually think that most Americans wouldn’t mind paying a little more for some things. The problem is business. They don’t want cheap labor. Never mind that the costs would go up for their competitors as well, they love cheap labor and illegals who they can dictate terms to.

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Brilliant! Stunningly brilliant!! Drive down wages so there is an even larger gap between living standards in both countries. Yep, that’ll sure discourage anyone from trying to sneak into the US.
[/QUOTE]

Huh? It would create jobs in Mexico. The more factories that open up the greater demand for the worker, which raises wages, not drive them down.

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Yes of course. Unilateral decisions are always the best way to solve problems between 2 countries.
[/QUOTE]

Hey, we should try to work together. But when one position is “I want you to let as many of my people sho desire to come into your country. And if you don’t let them do it legally, I’m not going to do shit to discourage them”, fuck Fox.

112

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
As I noticed in the other thread on birthright citizenship, he does not care about questions like “But, Who Will Bell the Cat?”, His solutions are irrelevant.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve discussed this on this boaerd before, citing both the original law and it’s reasons and the fact that their was attempt to put the issue back on the table. The fact is, the Constitution CAN be changed. Difficult, yes. But it’s not like an AMENDMENT has never been passed. And I pointed out in that thread (I think it was the one you are referring to, though it may have been another immigration thread), that there are those who believe it doesn’t require an amendment, just a correct interpretaion of the law.

I have to run now, the cat just killed my neighbor’s prize parrot.

113

Lissa, most people rely on personal experience; oh, they may look at other people’s conclusions but in the end it’s what they have experienced or what they project into the future for themselves and their families and children that motivates them. The fact that I have observed different situations and have drawn my own conclusions doesn’t invalidate them. And since you have not experienced what I have, you can’t point the finger and say I’m wrong.

I think I’m being a little severe because I’m beginning to have this low-key panic when I look at France and the terrible things that have happened there recently due to over-immigration. they obviously haven’t been able to successfully absorb so many aliens that quickly; and there aren’t enough jobs and services for the people they took in or for their children. And I believe most of them are there legally. And now people have marched in the streets here in recent days. they haven’t burned cars and destroyed property YET. Maybe they won’t because if ANY violence occured it would result in a situation I wouldn’t want to contemplate. If you don’t think people are capable of vast insensitivity and cruelty just think about the Japanese familes in the 1940’s who were given 24 hours notice and taken to hastily built camps. A friend of mind said his mother destroyed all their family heirlooms rather than let the looters take them. Men, women, children rounded up, and this was only 60 years ago.

The Minutemen at the border are the manifestation of this kind of fear. Do you think the government could even begin to control vigilantes rounding up illegals in Texas and Arizona and trucking them back across the border? Not unless they wanted to turn the National Guard on their own brothers and sons.

Listen, when I was 18 I would have been skipping school and marching in the streets too. But, now I’m an adult with children and I can’t turn a blind eye to the reality of this situation.

It’s gotten so bad that people can’t even talk about this without using the words racist and prejudice. Hot button words that used to work in the past and that could instill fear even in a Congressman or woman; but, no more I hope.

I don’t want people to be hurt. But, I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way around that. A very sad situation that the U.S. congress has allowed to come to the point where cruel things will have to be done. I can’t see any other way. But, it has to be done legally because if it isn’t I’m afraid of what will happen in those towns on the border who have had it. They’ve already declared a financial crisis and the federal government ignores them. The Minutemen have arisen to do what they feel the government hasn’t. This is just the start if Congress doesn’t do something so that the citizens of this country can feel they are are not abandoned by their legislators and don’t have to take the problem into their own hands. It’s really frightening

114

Closing our borders to keep our illegal aliens is only the tip of the iceburg. There are Mexican drug cartels with millions of dollars and willing to spend them on weapons that would rival the U.S. Army to keep the doors open to their customers in the United States. that is going to be the real war. And meanwhile, all our troops are in Iraq fighting a battle for democracy that never has and never will exist in those ancient deserts. Never. At least I think that’s obvious to anyone who knows the history of those lands. In any case, we will be left high and dry if a war breaks out on the border. And I’m about to move yet again; this time to Arizona. Maybe not a good move.

115

[QUOTE=magellan01]
As I wrote, they can stay OR go. If their parents are illegal, the minors can either stay with relatives or go back with their parents. Leave it up to the minors and their parents.
[/quote]

Yeah like it is that simple! What if there are no relatives? Or why should the relatives be forced to take that responsibility? How do you legally force a US citizen to leave the US?

[QUOTE=magellan01]
You might be right. But I think things are changing. I actually think that most Americans wouldn’t mind paying a little more for some things. The problem is business. They don’t want cheap labor. Never mind that the costs would go up for their competitors as well, they love cheap labor and illegals who they can dictate terms to.
[/quote]

I’ll bet you money that strengthened employer sanctions are conveniently left out the new immigration bill.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Huh? It would create jobs in Mexico. The more factories that open up the greater demand for the worker, which raises wages, not drive them down.
[/quote]

Unemployment isn’t necessarily the problem. The huge gap in wages is more incentive in heading north.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Hey, we should try to work together. But when one position is “I want you to let as many of my people sho desire to come into your country. And if you don’t let them do it legally, I’m not going to do shit to discourage them”, fuck Fox.
[/QUOTE]

That calls for a cite.

116

[QUOTE=suezeekay]
There are Mexican drug cartels with millions of dollars and willing to spend them on weapons that would rival the U.S. Army to keep the doors open to their customers in the United States.
[/QUOTE]

Where do the money and drugs for this ridiculous scenario originate?

117

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Yeah like it is that simple! What if there are no relatives? Or why should the relatives be forced to take that responsibility? How do you legally force a US citizen to leave the US?
[/QUOTE]

Nobody is forcing anyone. If the parenrts want the kid to be with them they CHOOSE to take him. If they want him to stay with relatives or friends they all agree and CHOOSE to make such arrangements. If the parents and or the minor want the minor to remain here and become a ward of the state, they CHOOSE to do so. I said nothing about forcing a citizen to do anyhting.

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
I’ll bet you money that strengthened employer sanctions are conveniently left out the new immigration bill.
[/QUOTE]

I bet you’re right, I’m very sorry to say. Because without that, nothing will change.

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Unemployment isn’t necessarily the problem. The huge gap in wages is more incentive in heading north.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but an upsurge in Mexican’s corporate world will put workers more in demand, thereby raising wages. It doesn’t stop America as being attractive, as the wages are still higher here, it just makes it less attractive. I mean, if you’re about to risk your life crossing the desert and someone says, “Hey, did you hear the Company X down the street is hiring, and their paying more thanone else in the city.”, don’t you think that would work as a reason to not go risk tyour life and live in a subculture?

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
That calls for a cite.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, come on. You know there is no cite, especially for the latter half.

Gotta go now. I’m off to earn my way in the country that my legal immigrant grandparents made it possible for me to flourish in.

118

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Nobody is forcing anyone. If the parenrts want the kid to be with them they CHOOSE to take him. If they want him to stay with relatives or friends they all agree and CHOOSE to make such arrangements. If the parents and or the minor want the minor to remain here and become a ward of the state, they CHOOSE to do so. I said nothing about forcing a citizen to do anyhting.
[/quote]

You also said nothing about becoming a ward of the state. Your tidy little argument is full of holes.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Yes, but an upsurge in Mexican’s corporate world will put workers more in demand, thereby raising wages. It doesn’t stop America as being attractive, as the wages are still higher here, it just makes it less attractive. I mean, if you’re about to risk your life crossing the desert and someone says, “Hey, did you hear the Company X down the street is hiring, and their paying more thanone else in the city.”, don’t you think that would work as a reason to not go risk tyour life and live in a subculture?
[/QUOTe]

Again your original argument was to make Mexico an attractive place for CHEAP manufacturing. Raise wages past a certain point and listen to that huge sucking sound as the multi-international corporations send those jobs to China where labor is dirt cheap.

Try again.

119

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I’ve discussed this on this boaerd before, citing both the original law and it’s reasons and the fact that their was attempt to put the issue back on the table. The fact is, the Constitution CAN be changed. Difficult, yes. But it’s not like an AMENDMENT has never been passed. And I pointed out in that thread (I think it was the one you are referring to, though it may have been another immigration thread), that there are those who believe it doesn’t require an amendment, just a correct interpretaion of the law.

I have to run now, the cat just killed my neighbor’s prize parrot.
[/QUOTE]

Why not just have a rational interpretation of the citizenship clause in the 14th Amendment? No need to change the constitution just have the Supreme Court rule that the 14th Amendment is not a guarantee of citizenship.

120

[QUOTE=Lochdale]
Why not just have a rational interpretation of the citizenship clause in the 14th Amendment? No need to change the constitution just have the Supreme Court rule that the 14th Amendment is not a guarantee of citizenship.
[/QUOTE]
Is that the way the Supreme Court works now? Political leaders snap their fingers, and the courts jumps?

What do you mean “rational” interpretation? It is very unambiguous the way it is, requiring no interpretation at all. Somehow I don’t think you would be too pleased if we applied the same “interpretation” to the 2nd Amendment to outlaw private ownership of guns.