Imagine for a minute that you have my philosophical worldview (I’ll outline it in a second). Is there some way to look at it that you can see, that could turn it into a positive or constructive influence? My reaction to it is emotionally negative and I don’t think I can change that without good reasons. Yet I see it as the truth (at least for me). I am not trying to convince you of it or argue about it, (let me repeat that: I have no desire to argue about it at all). I just want to know if you agree that it is depressing or is there some silver lining that I am missing in it? Ok, in brief here it is:
There is no objective meaning to the universe or being alive. I realize you can have or try to find subjective meaning but where do you think these prerogatives and preferences come from? (see 3)
There is no overall awareness to the universe, god, or creator to the universe (no plan, no fate, and no karma). I guess that could be a good thing.
We have no freewill. We are a product of experiences/society and biology; therefore there is no self created self to have a self-determining freewill.
We are a little chemical robots (see 3) on an infinitesimally small rock in an enormous universe, that is mostly physically hostile to us.
Humans are selfish yet social creatures competing and co-operating for resources, territory ect. often using various forms of manipulation, power and/or violence to get what they want.
Because I will never know what it is truly like to be you, I can never truly know you and vice versa. Subjectively you are impossible to truly know.
Therefore I am existentially alone and unknowable even though we can fake it.
Because I can never truly know anyone and vice versa, real love is impossible.
Love is an evolutionary adaptation. A chemical process to get us to mate and raise our young.
Death is a complete extinction, forever. When you are forgotten it will be as if you never existed; a dream that ends and then you don’t wake up.
All life dies and eventually everything in the universe will be dead so it will be as if none of this existed.
We are wired to try to gain pleasure and avoid pain. These are the driving forces of most human motivations.
So to sum up my view: my body and this world are a trap that “I” will live alone and die in. No way out, no freedom, just bondage, loneliness, meaninglessness and death. I am not pleased by this. My question is: should I be? Suggestions for seeing these things in a positive light are welcome.
Feelings are neither right or wrong. No one can tell you what you should feel. There is a great difference in thinking and feeling. It seems to me that you have described your thoughts. Both can be affected by chemical imbalances in your brain.
Some of the greatest writers have been able to put this same thinking to good use.
Frankly, I hope that you have some experiences that bring you more hope. Believe me. Life can turn on a dime.
I don’t have to imagine anything; based on those 12 points, I have the exact same opinions as you. Needless to say, I was very surprised to see my own worldview delineated like that.
Unfortunately, I don’t know if there’s anything I could tell you that would console you. I’m sure someone will be along to offer some uplifting “words of wisdom”, but most likely it will be a bunch of happy horseshit.
That said, I’m not as bothered by the truths of life today as I was when I first started unraveling everything for myself. It’s really not that upsetting that there isn’t a God, or love, or any meaning to life once you get used to these concepts.
I should also add that there are a couple of other items that would appear on my “list” that are not yet on yours, and they aren’t good. But they are the logical conclusions that follow from some of the statements you’ve already made.
If you keep thinking about these subjects, you will soon discover these items, and you are not going to be pleased. Be forewarned.
Damn Satasha, you pretty much summed up my worldview in a nutshell. It is kinda depressing if I think about it at length - something i generally try to avoid doing - but i just accepted that the universe is a cold, hostile, impersonal, faceless, sterile, emotionless, meaningless, pointless, and infinitely depressing place to live and that there’s jack shit i can do about it.
I think it is an accurate view of the world, with one exception. One of the chemical reactions, like the one that makes you fall in love, also lets you receive joy from stuff. It may be meaningless, but it feels good, so it really doesn’t matter. Life’s a bitch AND life’s a blast, and then you die. I’m cool with it.
My guess is you’re fairly young, Satasha. When you get a little older, it won’t feel nearly as depressing. The saddest part, to me, is when people start making up stories to make reality bearable. It depresses the hell outta me. Not that I really care (to quote John Lennon again, “Whatever gets you through the night…it’s all right…it’s all right.”) but it strikes me as very desperate.
With the financial markets opening, I don’t have time to respond in detail. But my impression is that your spiritual/emotional turmoil is really indicative of an underlying depressive disorder. I’m guessing you are lonely, feel unloved, and prone to intellectualizing when the central issue is not external to you but rather internal.
You say there is no objective meaning/reality to the universe. Whatever. Yet hundreds of millions of people worldwide would disagree with you. You say there is no cosmic plan. Ditto. Your inability to find meaning does not invalidate other people’s meanings nor does it suggest an objective absence of meaning. You tend to universalize your own internal discontent. I could go on and on, but I’ve heard many people voice these sentiments. Invariably, it’s an indication of clinical depression. Their doom and gloom worldview is both a tipoff and defense mechanism. With all due respect (and I mean that), you sound like a disillusioned college undergrad who, having taken two courses in philosophy, suddenly believes the world a cold, heartless, meaningless place. I wish my best and say with goodwill: quit wallowing in nothingness. You’re cheating yourself of a good life.
I have to agree with you there, tsunamisurfer. While we certainly can’t determine from this if satasha’s worldview is the result of an underlying depressive disorder, it’s a good indication that speaking with a professional counselor might very well do some good. I felt similarly in high school (that Hermann Hesse can be a real spirit-crusher), and lo and behold, I was diagnosed with major clinical depression. Through the wonders of pharmaceuticals (and quite a bit of self-examination) I concluded that I was pretty full of it.
My advice to you, satasha: you don’t have to be happy for every second of your life, but you don’t have to be miserable, either. If you are feeling so alone and isolated, you should look into seeing a counselor. Don’t take any psychiatric drugs if you don’t want to, though. It may do you a world of good just to talk to an objective listener who is trained to empathize with you and help you. Sometimes feeling bad feels oh-so-good, but you have some happiness inside you just waiting to come out, and that feels so much better than how you’re probably feeling.
regards,
B.Pants
The silver lining is that it does not matter what your worldview is. So just try to find little things in life that give you pleasure, and follow them. Why? Because it does not matter!
I share a similar worldview to satasha, but I am not depressive - s/he doesn’t have to be too.
The thing is, though you are ‘trapped’ in this one existence, you can still experience pleasure - as you said. So do. Experience new things, find out what interests you. For me, it’s travel - I love the exotic, the grandiose, the marvel of the world and all the things and people in it. Sure, it doesn’t mean anything, but you can still appreciate it. Then you have to work out the balance between what you want and how to achieve it - set a (realistic) goal, and then work towards that goal. I’m saving to go off travelling for at least a year. I’m prepared to put up with drudgery and mundanity for a few years in exchange for that. And when I have travelled, I’ll find something new to look forward to (probably going off travelling again).
It is never a bad idea to check out the angle that tsunamisurfer and B. Pants are suggesting - that there may be an underlying issue to your sense of depression
ratatoskK and jjim seem to be headed in the right direction - my worldview is very similar to yours, but when my head is working well, I remember a key point: The Journey IS the Destination. In other words, pursue accomplishments you find worthy of respect, seek pleasure where you can and live a good, honest life with people you care about (again, you may not know them perfectly, but you know you like them). Since nothing else matters, control the choices you can and feel good about the life choices you make.
The one key element that is missing in this discussion so far, near as I can tell, is faith - not in a higher being - you’ve covered that. But in the need to believe in something to give life meaning. People need faith in something. I will argue for having faith in the approach I just outlined - choose to believe that, while your philosophy is what it is, living an accomplishment-focused, relationship-centered life is worth living. It’s your faith, it’s your choice.
Thank you for your responses everyone. I can understand why many of you assume things about me without much data to go on. However, I can assure you that your assumptions are mostly wrong.
tsunamisurfer: I could easily say you are simply projecting inner hostility towards me because you disagree with my views. But I wouldn’t want to assume things about you and spout psychobabble given the current state of psychology. The loneliness I am speaking of is existential not social. These conclusions are mental and yes I do have an emotional reaction to them. What many seem to be missing is that it doesn’t matter if I am happy or feeling pleasure, that would just mean that my bio/social programs are adaptive. I suppose I am looking for mental reasons to feel more positive towards these conclusions. In light of what I just said maybe it’s a silly thing to ask.
Cynic: I would be interested in hearing your further ramifications. It might save me 20 years or so. (:
Read Waiting For Godot by Samuel Beckett. Or even better, see it.
You’ve realised that Godot isn’t coming, now stop waiting for him.
Then go on to read Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead (Tom Stoppard), The Dumb Waiter (Pinter) and the one by (I think) Ionesco with the giant dead body that keeps growing.
Even if you haven’t gained anything philosophically, you’ll still have read some damn good plays, and in my mind, that makes it worth it.
I can’t prove or disprove the existence of free will. But I sure feel like I have it. I can choose to let myself feel joy and awe and acceptance instead of wallowing in negative feeling over things I cannot change.
A few things that bring me joy and awe:[ul]
[li]My niece. Children in general.[/li][li]My pets. They are so cool.[/li][li]The stars. Feel your smallness and exalt in it. You are a perfect part of something very big.[/li][li]The ocean. It’s very big. Its rhythms go on with or without you. Allow yourself to feel its glory.[/li][li]The Northern Lights. I’ve seen them once, but it changed my life forever. I danced beneath the swirling tendrils and felt nothing except absolute awe.[/li][li]Roller coasters. It’s hard to worry about the heat death of the universe when you’re hurling downhill at 60 mph.[/li][/ul]
Seriously, there’s no reason to feel bad about this. It affects you not at all.
Satasha, You seem to be saying that you’re not depressed, but it sounds very much like you are. I hope that you can find a way to focus on the joy of life instead of suffering over things you cannot change.
Existentialism can be very depressing. But I don’t think it needs to be. It almost sounds as if you’re bummed that there isn’t a god. The idea that we’re on our own excites me, even if it is a bit confusing. We can’t know WHY we’re here. But we can enjoy the sheer weirdness of it nonetheless.
I left something important off my joy list: music. Turn it up so loud that it drives your own thoughts out of your head.
I can’t find life meaningless when I can play a CD of a Beethoven symphony pretty much any time I want. Listen to the 9th Symphony, 4th movement (the “Ode to Joy”); it will make you feel a lot of things, but existential angst is not one of them.
The point of me listing all these specific things is (1) perhaps you too can find joy in some of them; (2) I believe that it is such things that lift one out of feeling bad about things in general.
Yes there is, and it’s me. I am the meaning to my universe, maybe not someone elses but to me I am everything.
Don’t know, don’t care, don’t really think about it.
I don’t think I get this, yes we are a produce of experiences but that sure as hell don’t mean that I can’t choose what I do with my life, where I go, how I act.
The “physically hostile” part is what can make like intersting.
and? But the problem here is that the people who use power etc are the bad ones. I really don’t want to make this a GD so that’s all I’ll say but there is nothing wrong with being selfish.
No you can’t, but you can empathize (sp) and have some idea. Plus there are similar experiences, similar ideas so just cause you can’t be someone else doesn’t mean that you can’t get along with them.
Yeah and? you’re stuck now so you might as well make the best of it.
Now, while I know I’m in the minority you might want to read some Ayn Rand, if you want the truth I would read Anthem, the last few chapters was always the best I think. I also tend to think that Monty Python’s Always look on the Bright Side of Life was good too.
