What traits make for a great superhero?

Cafe Society
21

I agree with your choice of iconic characters as far as it goes. I would express their meaning a bit differently, in terms of what they mean to the reader. Once I do that I can justify adding a couple more and some variations on the theme.

Superman is the ultra-noble vision we have of ourselves. Enormous abilities, enormous powers, but all under the control of homespun values so that we can resist all temptation and dedicate ourselves to good.

Batman is “revenge is a dish best eaten cold” turned sideways to show that the best revenge honors the family but extends its meaning outside the nuclear structure. It’s revenge conquered.

Spider-Man is the insecurity inside us needing to be repeatedly overcome with our newfound abilities as we grow older; the lesson that not only does great power bring great responsibility but that responsibility never ends - it just asks more and more from you.

Wonder Women is the strength we get from our heritage made manifest. She is the history and family and belief that guide us and give us determination.

So who else can be thought of in these terms?

The Hulk. Within us lies rage qwhich turns to utter unconquerable strength when we are pushed unfairly to the edge.

The Fantastic Four. In family there is strength, as well as forgiveness, understanding, support, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Closely behind the icons, though, come the wish fulfillment wonders.

I wish I could run faster than anybody: the Flash.

I wish I had a magic ring: Green Lantern.

I wish my brain were so smart and powerful I could control the world: Professor X.

I wish I had a suit of armor, a modern one. Iron Man.

And then everybody who can’t be placed into these tiers is an also-ran, even if much loved.

How is the Blue Beetle a wish fulfillment fantasy? His powers don’t speak to our dreams and his back story doesn’t speak to our hearts. That’s why he’ll always be third-rate.

What of Wolverine? Power of rage? Hulk does that better. Healing power? He has to get hurt first, not normally a top wish. Back story? Mysterious figures operated on a pawn when he was awake. Yuuch.

Notice that a lot of what earlier was said was required is missing in this formulation. No mention of flashy costume. No need for a great villain. No need for supporting characters. The heroes are self-defined, complete by virtue of who they are, without any trappings.

Superman can go off into space and still be Superman, even if stripped of his costume.

Spidey can do a whole episode rescuing a cat from a tree.

Hulk just needs a large rock to hulk out on.

We’re willing to spend an issue just with them being them. We might like the other stuff to add some flavor, but in the end it’s just spice on top of our meat.

That’s why it’s next to impossible to add new iconic heroes. Most of the best basic reactions have already been taken. Everything else is a tacit commentary on already existing heroes. Alan Moore has written that scenario a dozen times over, and very well. But you have to settle for critical praise and not a character that will outlive you by decades.

22

I haven’t read comics in a decade or more and, to be honest, I don’t even like Norse mythology all that much. I prefer Greek but picked this name because I’ve always liked the way the word looks.

23

Aesiron. Okay. I wondered. Your interest in comics seems pretty up to date. For the record, I like “Aesiron”, and I had you pegged for a Thor fan. Didn’t you once join a Superman vs. Thor discussion taking Thor’s side?

Menoccio. Wonder Woman also brought sex appeal, mythology, equality and to the role of superhero-- and helped originate the concept of an ‘outsider to modern civilation’ later continued by such folks as the Submariner, Orion, and Silver Surfer. Also she symbolizes Truth the way Batman symbolizes Justice and Superman, The American Way.

There are a few more iconic superheroes than the six you cited. There might be as many as fifteen. Consider the disparate origins and motivations of Plastic Man, Captain America, The Spectre, Luke Cage (Power Man – possibly comics’s first major antihero), superspy Nick Fury and The Spirit.

I’d move up the Silver Age Green Lantern and Flash to “icon” status, along with Iron Man.

24

Thanks. While I don’t read comics anymore, I am still interested enough in them that I do open and read most of the threads posted about them here. I’m glad to know I don’t make a fool of myself every time I post on it.

Also, while I wasn’t a fan of Norse mythology when I first chose this as my user name, I’ve come to appreciate it a bit more in the intervening years. I was a little too hasty in saying I don’t like it that much… I suppose the better way to put it is that, if given the choice, I’d prefer Greek, but otherwise enjoy it well enough.

And, yes… I posted to that thread and still stand firm that Thor would kick Superman’s ass from Midgard to Asgard.

25

Anyone else here read Michael Chabon’s The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay? A terrific read, well worth it.

Anyway, in the book, Chabon makes the point that the “why” is the most important element of a superhero. Sure, they can leap tall buildings in a single bound, or defeat any enemy if prepared, or whatever. But why do they wish to fight crime, or whatever it is that they do? What is their motivation?

I’d submit that the best superheroes have good motivations. Batman’s got vengeance from the parents-being-killed-thing, Spiderman’s just an average guy with superpowers trying to do the best he can (with the death-of-a-loved-one backstory), and so on. Otherwise, they’re not superheroes, they’re just very strong people who wear their underpants on the outside, and even Bulgarian weightlifters fit that category.

26

As a point of order…is the “‘iconic’ heroes don’t/rarely kill” bit something we can attribute to “greatness” of a hero, or something we should really attribute to the Comics Code Authority?

Or, to be more pragmatic…maybe it has more to do with the fact that a lot of “iconic” heroes need to have a an arch-nemesis. (Like Batman and The Joker) If the hero just kills villains before they can become a lingering threat, you remove a pretty big source of dramatic tension and struggle that can add to “iconic” status. (Great…having to choose between the lives of innocent albeit fictional civilians, vs. your editor yelling at you about deadlines, and having to come up with yet another supervillain for Uberman to fight, despite running out of good villain concepts months earlier.)
Ranchoth
(And what about all those robots who always get waxed? No one cares if the heroes kill them. It’s just pure bigotry, man! ::Robot-power salute::slight_smile:

27

As I said in my earlier post – the early iconic heroes very quickly began to share a very similar set of behaviors that fall into roughly seven categories. Killing as a last resort is absolutely one and should probably top my list. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Hawkman, Plastic Man, the Spirit, etc. all exhibited these traits in their early years, long before the restricted cde was put into effect in the 1950s. (When early Batman used a gun to kill, its use was phased out fairly soon.) When Marvel Comics was formed in 1963, their main heroes began to exhibit the same seven ideal behaviors as the last 30s DC heroes.

The Comics Code Authority didn’t prevent heroes killing. War comics – full of death and destruction – still fell under the auspices of the code and were published well into the 1980s. The CC edited depictions of gore, blood, and toned down violence and references to certain aspects of the occult and supernatural, like the walking dead.

Ranchoth. I absolutely agree that from a purely pragmatic publishing viewpoint, having villains that the hero can’t just kill off makes good financial sense and allows for the concept of the archenemy, team-ups, recurring villains and a Rogue’s Gallery to happen.

If I had to amend the list, I suppose I’d add “clean living” as a subset of self-sacrifice.

28

Never forget the artists & writers.

Early Spiderman = Steve Ditko.
Early Blue Beetle = Nobody bothers to remember.

Great writers & artists turn lame ideas into unforgettable characters.
The Spirit is just a guy with a blue business suit & a mask. No powers or gadgets. But Will Eisner’s art & writing make him a giant, a classic comic book character.

29

Please to define “clean living”.

I can think of one iconic hero who never indulges in the use of intoxicants, but who in the portion of his life spent not wearing Spandex and kicking criminal ass, is known as a notorious playboy.

Yeah, I know, all part of the disguise and all, but still…

30

Okay, obviously I was being facetious and gave WW the short shrift. She definitely fits the feminist hero slot. I may also give you the connection of comics to mythology. She’s also the strange visitor motif, moreso than Superman, as she was raised in a strange culture and comes to man’s world to do good. Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, and the SA Hawks (among others) also fit that.

I don’t like “Truth Justice and the American Way” mostly because it’s so empty. Batman, at times, is more vengeance than Justice. Superman’s always been a multinationalist (radio sloagn notwithstanding). Wonder Woman as Truth? Well, her most unique power is to compel the truth, but I’m still not buying that that makes her iconic of a abstract concept.

Plas is a special case. First off, he’s the a very comedic comic hero. I don’t know if he personifies the genre, but I could be convinced. I suppose we should have a category for “those that have powers thrust upon them” as opposed to the Superman acrchetype, where it’s inborn, or the Spider-Man archetype, where the hero suffers for his new inhumanity. I dont think Plas is iconic of this group, but I can’t say who is.

Depending on how you look at him, he’s either a Batman or Superman archetype.

Superman archetype. Just spookier and more violent. The fact that his powers and origin are different is just window dressing, he’s still a inhuman being working for teh good of humanity.

Ah, the anti-hero! The bad person who fights even greater evils. Yeah, that is a powerful trope. I’d say that, while later in Origin, Wolverine and the Punisher achieved much greater popular breakthrough, however.

OK, I’ll give you that. I’m not sure “superspy” is a powerful enough archetype to make him iconic.

Batman archetype.

Iron Man, no. Simply not enough of an impact on the popular psyche. SA GL and Flash are both great contenders for the “greatness thrust upon them” icon position. Flash holds a special place in my heart because nobody told him to do good with his powers. He read the comics, he knew what one does with superpowers. I’d like to think I’d do the same.

31

We should also look at iconic supergroups:

The Justice League of America: Individual champions of disparate origin come together to form a group to combat awesome evils that they cannot singularly overcome. See also the Avengers, the JSA, some takes of the Teen Titans.

The Fantastic Four Heroes share a common origin, and/or familial (real or constructed) bonds. See also the Challangers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks, other takes on the Teen Titans.

The X-Men Group is assembled due to some common theme among members, and for purposes more specific than “fight evil” or “help people”.

32

Let’s define “iconic” a little better. To me, there are really only 3 iconic superheroes, Superman, Batman, and Spiderman. If you are traveling in Uzbekistan and stop in a mud hut and have tea heated over a yak-dung fire, the people you are sharing tea with will know these characters.

These three are in a class by themselves. Then you have a gaggle of first-string characters, like Captain America, Green Lantern, the FF, the X-Men, Wonder Woman, Flash, Thor, Daredevil, Hulk, etc. Hugely popular, but they certainly aren’t comparable to the big three. People in Uzbekistan might know some of them, but they certainly aren’t going to recognize all of them or even most of them. If you want to break this group into first and second tiers feel free.

And THEN you have your also-rans, your niche players, your Blue Beetles and Booster Golds, your Hawkeyes and Scarlet Witches, your She-Hulks and Iron Fists. They may have their own books for a while, they may be great characters, but they fall flat.

So to focus the question a bit, why are Supes, Bats, and Spidey iconic compared to the other first tier characters? What holds a second-tier character back from becoming first tier? And what differentiates first and second tier characters from last tier characters?

33

Iron Man wears spandex?

Kidding.

But whether you meant Iron Man or Batman, “clean living” exhibits such a range of behavior that can mean anything from rabid anal retentive barracks-style cleaniless and order to ultra-left hippie-herbal-organic-vegan-inner-cleansing… both are fine given the right hero… I think it’s clear that an abundance of too many vices – sex, drug use, smoking, profanity, gambling, dirty fighting, trash talking and disregard for personal and private private property – will qualify you as an anti-hero in most cases.

Let me vaguely define “clean living” as “persistence of self-control with a moderation in selected vices.”

34

In addition to what’s already been mentioned–

A superhero should have enemies who are more powerful than he is. This is tough for Superman and Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner version), but they compensate for their omnipotence by both being a little bit stupid.

A superhero should have some aspect that makes you not envy him so much, like Iron Man’s heart problems/alcoholism, Spidey’s chronic money problems, Thor’s treacherous relatives, etc. If there isn’t some aspect of “Oh that poor bastard” in there, the character is a lot less interesting (Tarzan lacks this, which is why he hasn’t been a viable character in decades).

IMO, the last truly great superhero was the Rocketeer. Not only was he drawn by the best artist in the business, but he has the most believable motivation of any superhero out there–he’s out to impress a pretty girl.

35

Defending my choices.

Plastic Man is a special case, special enough and deserving of a superheroic icon designation. Besides the original stretching and morphing powers, Plas can be written straight and funny, law-abiding or reformed crook. I’m tempted to switch Plas and Captain Marvel, tho. They share a lot of the same trappings. But I’m prwetty sure it was Plas who paved the way for Cap and not the other way around.

The Spectre. Let’s clarify one thing – Superman influenced damn near everybody. Some rip-offs are more transparent and unintended homages than others, but occassionally someone comes along and introduces enough variation in the basic design you realize the end product is something new entirely. Spectre is not a Superman clone. The epitome of the character’s powers and motivation came in the tail end of Alan Moore’s “American Gothic” Swamp Thing run – THAT character is nothing like Superman. The Spectre was the first of the Judeo-Christian supernatural/occult hero – Thor, Deadman, Dr. Strange, Talisman, Etrigan, and even Preacher owe a debt to the Spectre. Whereas Superman tries to explain his abilities using psudeoscience, these other heroes don’t even try.

Luke Cage is the original comic book anti-hero. If the Punisher and Wolverine epiotimzed the anti-hero better, it’s because or more exposure and better writers, If Luke Cage had originally been handled by Iceberg Slim, Ismael Reed, Chester Himes or even Richard Wright, instead of Len Wein and Graham Tuska, without the ‘secret heart of gold’ crap and ridiculous faux-slang and cursing, this wouldn’t even be questioned.

36

I’m glad to see somebody brought this thread back!

Askia, the qualities you mention are (IMO) ideals set for superheroes to follow, but not the essential factors that spark enough reader interest that he / she becomes a truly iconic hero. The Blue Beetle to my knowledge does not kill his opponents, and has a moderate social outlook, but still is not an iconic hero.

(SIDE NOTE: I just like to say that I actually like the Blue Beetle, and did not intend for him to take such a drubbing in this thread! I mentioned him off-handedly as a hero who has been around a while, has a distinctive look and gimmick (his Beetle saucer), and is well-known to comic book geeks like myself, but alas if you mentioned the character to non-comic book fans, they won’t know anything about him. I could have easily mentioned Wildcat, or Ant-Man, or Johnny Quick - all of whom have had long careers in the comics, but just aren’t pop culture fixtures.)

Tengu, definitely good writing is a crucial aspect, but it’s a good writer’s & artist’s response to my initial categories that distinguish a superstar breakout character from an also-ran. A good writer will strive to think up more creative, novel & unique powers, motivations, and personalities to fill up the pages. That said, it still doesn’t guaruntee a character will become a true icon. Neil Gaiman’s “Sandman” was one of the best written comic books ever, but Morpheus still doesn’t rank as the kind of common knowledge as Superman / Clark Kent does.

The more I think of it, the more I become convinced it’s the theme or subtext of a character that’s the most crucial distinction. The characters must represent something that the general public desires, or aspires to. Some examples -

Superman: Clark Kent is dismissed as a hapless, wimpy schmuck, but he is secretly also the godlike adonis that sexy Lois Lane lusts after. Superman is our wish-fulfillment of being able to step out of our everyday identities (Clark Kent) and reveal ourselves to be demigods.

Batman: The polar opposite of Superman. He is the dark, obsessive side of ourselves that we know is there, but don’t let people get to know. Batman is the ultimate fetish-case.

Wonder Woman: Deliberately created as a symbol of female-empowerment. She is also, like Askia pointed out, the original “fish out of water.”

Plastic Man: Represents pure anarchic fun. He is not bound to any shape, and is completely unfettered in his ability to express himself.

Captain America: The ultimate Patriotic hero. A living, breathing, fighting embodiment of patriotic (some might say nationalistic) ferver.

Spider-Man: A teenaged version of Sisyphus. His powers never make his life easier, he never stems the flow of psychotic superpowered bad guys who come out of the woodwork, and no matter how hard he tries - he can’t cope with it all. Yet still he keeps trying. (I bet Camus would’ve loved Spider-Man!)

37

I agree with Lemur866 on there only being 3 iconic heroes. I’d really like to be able to add Wonder Woman to the three mentioned, and I think that at some point she might have been on the list, but at this point I think her character is such a mess and so long out of the public eye that she falls short.

People know the name “Wonder Woman”, but I think if you showed a random sampling of people a picture of her you’d get half of them calling her Super Woman or something.

I think Menocchio is right that if she gets on the list at all, it’s just because she’s a girl.

38

shy guy. repectfully, I think Lemur866 is mistaking ‘mass market appeal’ for genuine superhero iconic status. Based on his list, he should be adding the Hulk, X-Men and Wonder Woman. Both have had featured movies and/ or television shows.

If you look at Mennocchio’s last post responding to mine, even he concedes there are more than three iconic superheroes, going so far as to suggest iconic superhero team formations. Right now we’re still quibbling about the exact numbers.

Moreso than any other hero, Captain America is a nationally-identified patriot with unquestioned leadership authority, created by the U.S. government with a unique weapon that can be used offensively and defensively. He’s comics first deliberately manufactured hero-- all other attempts at Marvel have revealed devastating flaws and in the DCU you end-up with also rans like Superboy and The Guardian. Furthermore Cap’s had more kinds of sidekicks than damn near anybody. He occupies a unique niche somewhere between human and superhuman with Wonder Woman’s ‘outsider grappling with modern civilization’ schtick. If Spider-Man is the most identifiable hero, than Captain America is the most authoritative and indominable.

Iron Man is quintessentially comic book’s foremost Man With The Machine, a science fiction archetype credited to Jules Verne (and to a lesser extent H.G. Wells) as a kind of hard science mastermind of improbable machinery, i.e., the Iron Man suit. There is no character in comics who is the avowed master of mechanics the way industrialist Tony Stark is, although Forge, Will Magnus, Reed Richards, T’Challa, Bruce Wayne and Lex Luthor – and villains T.O. Morrow and Professor Ivo – all come close in various respects. I am reminded of that aside in Alias when Jessica Jones asks the Avenger Warbird, “They make Palm Pilots that print now?” and Warbird replies, “No, Tony Stark got these for us.”

The heroes Flash and Green Lantern make the icon list for different reasons. Firstly Barry Allen’s Flash was comics’ foremost all-purpose inventive science hero, using his seemingly limited one superpower in most inventive ways. In time he learned to phase through solid objects, time travel, traverse dimensions and harness the power of the wind. It was his calculating scientific mind that made thse and other innvations standard among superheroes, making him the fastest man alive, outdistancing even his own namesake predecessor, Jay Garrick.

Hal Jordan’s Green Lantern – like Iron Man’s MWTM and Nick Fury’s superspy status – benefits from mainstream and science fiction pulp traditions that anteceded his. Jordan’s position as a member of an nigh-omnipotent intergalactic peace-keeping force had been done before, from E.E. ‘Doc’ Smith’s Lensman series (late 1930s) to Klaatu in The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951), to name two. Hal Jordan antedates the similarly themes Legion of the Superheroes and the galactic herald Silver Surfer, as well as Tommy Tomorrow, Star Hawkins and the Star Rovers.

39

I’d like to submit another icon/archetype. Though not easily identifiable outside comic fandom, there’s another role here - the Exposition Guy/Deus Ex Machina. The sort of hero who shows up exactly when he’s needed, knows what’s going on, and fades back into the woodwork when the trouble’s gone.

The Phantom Stranger, in DC. Uatu the Watcher would be the best Marvel Analogue.

40

Okay, before I strart my response I want to make a few things clear that i think we mght be talking past each other with. When I’m defining “icon”, I’m talking about heroes (or groups of heroes) that exemplify common trends in superhero comics. I’m not talking about specific character traits, origins, or power sets, but grand core concepts that are universal among comics and easily recognized even outside of comics fandom. Obvioulsy, there are characters that aren’t easily classified or are totally unclassifiable, but that doesn’t mean that they are icons in and of themselves. For example, “Superspy” is a unique archetype, but it simply isn’t powerful enough to make Nick Fury an icon (same goes for “Deus Ex”-man, CG).

I’ll give Plas the nod for Comedy Hero. However, “stretchy hero” and “reformed crook” just aren’t big enough to be iconic. Even “Comedy Hero” is stretching it (HA!) IMHO.

Nope, sorry, Occult Hero doesn’t cut it. He’s still “The Other who fights for humanity”, a la Superman. Whether your powers come from magic or alien ancestry doesn’t really matter. The later, more mythic Spectre, I’d argue, isn’t a superhero at all, like Preacher, Moore’s Swamp Thing, and Gaiman’s Sandman. The emphasis is on mythology and character, not “put on a cape and fight evil”.

Primacy is important, but not everything. Popular appeal and writing consistancy win the Anti-hero category for Wolverine (although I wonder if any “icon” category where the icon is at all in doubt is worthy of being called an icon).

So, to sum up, I’m willing to allow the following iconic archetypes and heroes:
Superman- The “other” who fights for humanity. See also Thor, Spectre.

Batman- The pinnacle of human potentional fights for humanity. See also Captain America.

Wonder Woman- She’s a girl! See also, um, every female hero ever.

Spider-Man- Hero with inhuman ability and human problems still struggles to fight evil.

Wolverine- The bad man fight even greater evils, and perhaps struggles to find or keep alive the spark of goodness within himself. See also Punisher, Luke Cage.

Greatness Thrust Upon Them- Through some accident or serendipitious discovery, a formerly ordinary person finds superhuman abilities. He suffers less than Spider-Man, and is less driven than Batman, but still fights teh good fight. I’m not sure who best personifies this, but it’s imply too damn powerful a meme to get rid of. It might just be a subset of Superman (for accidental heroes, like the Flash) and Batman (for technologists like Iron Man and practiced occultists like Dr. Strange).