What was/is going on in the former Yugoslavia?

Great Debates
1

More of a question, but I think it might have the potential to end up here.

In my dorm there is an international student from Macedonia (I think) that was formerly part of Yugoslavia. He has told me that it’s not the “Greek Macedonia,” whatever that means. This isn’t about geography though.

Last night another student and the Macedonian (?) were talking in the hall. They were arguing about what happened in Yugoslavia. One was saying that what Milosevic had done was wrong by trying to carry out ethnic cleansing and he was glad that Milosevic is now in The Hague.

The Macedonian argued that the people that Milosevic was trying to get rid of had come into wherever they were and weren’t willing to assimilate, and were even trying to take over. He said Milosevic was just trying to keep that from happening, and that Americans should be in The Hague for bombing Belgrade (I think?). He said that the bombing in Belgrade (?) was worse than September 11.

I don’t really know what was/is going on in the former Yugoslavia. I know that there was some ethnic cleansing going on, and the root of it was because of the people’s differing (religious) beliefs. I know that there is Serbia and Croatia, but I don’t know much else. I would think that I would side with the person that sad Milosevic is a Bad Guy, but since the guy he was talking to was actually from the area, I didn’t think I should argue with him since I didn’t know the background. I’d appreciate it if anyone could fill me in.

2

Hmmm, I’m not an expert in this by any means, but I’ll do my best to inform you what I know.

Basically, starting on a tangent, Macedonian Greek is a lineage of Greeks that Alexander the Great belonged to.

Slobodan Milosevic, a Serbian communist, was elected president of the Yugoslav republics sometime in the late '80s (sorry, bad with dates here). He eventually morphed into a Serbian nationalist leader, showing his true colors at a speech on the anniversary of a great battle that the Serbs and Ottoman Turks fought centuries before. [Note- this may have been before his election, I’m a bit unsure]

Eventually came a civil war. Different republics seceded, and Serbia essentially became it’s own nation, invading Bosnia and Albania. Many civilians on each side perished in brutal warfare.

However, while some Albanian partisans did in fact carry out atrocities against Serbian civilians, Serb atrocities against ethnic Albanians and Bosnian Muslims were generally on a larger and more horrific scale. Over 900,000 people were forcibly deported, more than 10,000 were massacred (at least 7,000 alone in the village of Srebrenica), and many tens of thousands were detained in wretched Serb run concentration camps, where men were tortured and women raped.

NATO forces did kill probably more than a thousand Serbian civilians during the campaign, but this was essentially tragic collateral damage.

All in all, it was one of the bloodiest conflicts Europe had seen since the Second World War.

www.pbs.org has lots of information, I believe.

www.compuserb.com has lots of whitewashed pro-Serbian rhetoric, so take everything you read there with whole lumps of salt.

3

I know this wasn’t supposed to be a geography question but, there is a province of Greece called Macedonia. When Yugoslavia broke up, the province of that country that was also called Macedonia wanted to use that as its country’s name and the Greeks were unhappy about that thinking it might precipitate internal conflict between Greek Macedonia and the rest of Greece.

Hence they asked that the Yugoslavian state be called something else and so you may see it referred to on maps as FYROM (the Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Macedonia).

4

Well, not one to defend Serbs, but they didn’t invade Albania. Albanians, however, did and are carrying out a low-intensity insurgency against Serbia, from both Albania and Kosovo. (Kosova to the Albanians).

Daoloth, Macedonians are not Greeks. Nor do they like being called so. I know, I know, what a niggling point, since there is a ‘Macedonia’ in Greece as well, but they aren’t Macedonians. Long story :wink:

The old East vs. West (Europe edition) alliances showed through during the war:

Croatia has a large percentage of German-decendants. During WW2, Croatia was rather fervently pro-Nazi, and hold the dubious distinction of having the last European Axis army to surrender. The mark was accepted currency throughout Croatia. You get the idea. Germany provided Croatia with some incredibly needed military hardware in those early years. Mainly, they gave a lot of fmr. E.German stuff that they were going to pitch anyways, but every bit counts. Also, we got Israeli support, technical mainly, although now there are some small joint defence-industry ventures. The Ukraine also came through with aide, namely the Croatian Airforce (MiG-21’s, but again, better then nothing!)
Serbia recieved aid from Russia, from weapons to oil.

Bosnia recieved military aid from various Arab states, generally smuggled in through Croatia. (Not that Croatians generally were in love with Bosnia, but the whole ‘enemy of my enemy’ thing.). Of course, some of the military aid was in the form of Muhajadeen, who now form the nucleus of various Bosnian and ethnic Albanian terrorist groups.

Of course, knees on all sides trembled when Brutus enlisted into the 1st Guards Brigade (Go Tigers!) on 14 Jul 94. This is generally accepted as the event that brought all sides to the peace tables (a few years later, but better late then never!).

I will say this: Within 2-3 years after the various ABC groups pull out of the area, there will be war again.

I doubt it will be anything like the first round, but still, it will be nasty. There is tremendous resentment from ethnic Serbs towards the UN and NATO (and I can understand why). Croatia has its eyes on a little slice of Bosnia. Bosnia has a bunch of bored Islamic militants sitting around, looking to scrap. Kosovo has the KLA, which was on the State Dept’s terrorist list until Clinton decided they were going to become cause celeb. Macedonia is dealing with a Albanian insurgency.

Memories are long in the Balkans (you’ll still find some Croats and Serbs who are leery of a resurgent Ottoman Empire). The presence of the UN is delaying matters, not stopping them.

5

Well, not one to defend Serbs, but they didn’t invade Albania. Albanians, however, did and are carrying out a low-intensity insurgency against Serbia, from both Albania and Kosovo. (Kosova to the Albanians).

Daoloth, Macedonians are not Greeks. Nor do they like being called so. I know, I know, what a niggling point, since there is a ‘Macedonia’ in Greece as well, but they aren’t Macedonians. Long story :wink:

The old East vs. West (Europe edition) alliances showed through during the war:

Croatia has a large percentage of German-decendants. During WW2, Croatia was rather fervently pro-Nazi, and hold the dubious distinction of having the last European Axis army to surrender. The mark was accepted currency throughout Croatia. You get the idea. Germany provided Croatia with some incredibly needed military hardware in those early years. Mainly, they gave a lot of fmr. E.German stuff that they were going to pitch anyways, but every bit counts. Also, we got Israeli support, technical mainly, although now there are some small joint defence-industry ventures. The Ukraine also came through with aide, namely the Croatian Airforce (MiG-21’s, but again, better then nothing!)
Serbia recieved aid from Russia, from weapons to oil.

Bosnia recieved military aid from various Arab states, generally smuggled in through Croatia. (Not that Croatians generally were in love with Bosnia, but the whole ‘enemy of my enemy’ thing.). Of course, some of the military aid was in the form of Muhajadeen, who now form the nucleus of various Bosnian and ethnic Albanian terrorist groups.

Of course, knees on all sides trembled when Brutus enlisted into the 1st Guards Brigade (Go Tigers!) on 14 Jul 94. This is generally accepted as the event that brought all sides to the peace tables (a few years later, but better late then never!).

I will say this: Within 2-3 years after the various ABC groups pull out of the area, there will be war again.

I doubt it will be anything like the first round, but still, it will be nasty. There is tremendous resentment from ethnic Serbs towards the UN and NATO (and I can understand why). Croatia has its eyes on a little slice of Bosnia. Bosnia has a bunch of bored Islamic militants sitting around, looking to scrap. Kosovo has the KLA, which was on the State Dept’s terrorist list until Clinton decided they were going to become cause celeb. Macedonia is dealing with a Albanian insurgency.

Memories are long in the Balkans (you’ll still find some Croats and Serbs who are leery of a resurgent Ottoman Empire). The presence of the UN is delaying matters, not stopping them.

6

Well, not one to defend Serbs, but they didn’t invade Albania. Albanians, however, did and are carrying out a low-intensity insurgency against Serbia, from both Albania and Kosovo. (Kosova to the Albanians).

Daoloth, Macedonians are not Greeks. Nor do they like being called so. I know, I know, what a niggling point, since there is a ‘Macedonia’ in Greece as well, but they aren’t Macedonians. Long story :wink:

The old East vs. West (Europe edition) alliances showed through during the war:

Croatia has a large percentage of German-decendants. During WW2, Croatia was rather fervently pro-Nazi, and hold the dubious distinction of having the last European Axis army to surrender. The mark was accepted currency throughout Croatia. You get the idea. Germany provided Croatia with some incredibly needed military hardware in those early years. Mainly, they gave a lot of fmr. E.German stuff that they were going to pitch anyways, but every bit counts. Also, we got Israeli support, technical mainly, although now there are some small joint defence-industry ventures. The Ukraine also came through with aide, namely the Croatian Airforce (MiG-21’s, but again, better then nothing!)
Serbia recieved aid from Russia, from weapons to oil.

Bosnia recieved military aid from various Arab states, generally smuggled in through Croatia. (Not that Croatians generally were in love with Bosnia, but the whole ‘enemy of my enemy’ thing.). Of course, some of the military aid was in the form of Muhajadeen, who now form the nucleus of various Bosnian and ethnic Albanian terrorist groups.

Of course, knees on all sides trembled when Brutus enlisted into the 1st Guards Brigade (Go Tigers!) on 14 Jul 94. This is generally accepted as the event that brought all sides to the peace tables (a few years later, but better late then never!).

I will say this: Within 2-3 years after the various ABC groups pull out of the area, there will be war again.

I doubt it will be anything like the first round, but still, it will be nasty. There is tremendous resentment from ethnic Serbs towards the UN and NATO (and I can understand why). Croatia has its eyes on a little slice of Bosnia. Bosnia has a bunch of bored Islamic militants sitting around, looking to scrap. Kosovo has the KLA, which was on the State Dept’s terrorist list until Clinton decided they were going to become cause celeb. Macedonia is dealing with a Albanian insurgency.

Memories are long in the Balkans (you’ll still find some Croats and Serbs who are leery of a resurgent Ottoman Empire). The presence of the UN is delaying matters, not stopping them.

7

Damn. Sorry about the squirrel attack. I went to clean-up one date, and look what happens…

8

Just to addend to Brutus’ comments, I’ll note that the Mujahadeen imported into Bosnia pretty much failed to export Muslim extremism to the wider society in the region. They were flying high in '92, but by 1995 were mostly embittered failures. I wouldn’t say that Islamic militants are terribly prevalent there any more ( though doubtless some are still around ).

Re: Macedonia - The name is a source of tension with Greece, because for purely assinine ( value judgement - sorry :wink: ) nationalistic reasons, Greece considers the name to be a sacrosanct reminder of Greek glories past. However the people of Macedonia are essentially Bulgarian, perhaps with minor dialectical differences. For that matter, language aside, the modern Greeks are pretty much ethnically Slavs as well ( I’ll skip the long historical essay on why ), not that that fact is generally acknowledged.

Re: Albanians and Kosovo - Kosovo province was one of the centers of the old medieval kingdom of Serbia and the town was the focal point of the big Serbian nationalistic rallying cry - The Filed of Blackbirds ( Battle of Kosovo, 1389 ). Despite the emotional attachement, demographic shifts over the centuries has rendered the region 90+% Albanian in population. Hence the tension that ultimately resulted in the bombing of Belgrade. Technically it was/is a part of Serbia, but the ethnic majority was being repressed. As Brutus pointed out, the country of Albania was never formally involved in the whole affair, though there was some sheltering of KLA rebels that took place.

Excrutiatingly boring historical minutia ( to most ) available upon request :).

  • Tamerlane
9

Field of Blackbirds, that is.

  • Tamerlane
10

Ah, but the real question is why ethnic tensions in the former Yugoslavia erupted into violence after the Communist collapse while others were able to resolve differences peacefully.

The answer to that is competition among competing men for control. The power-sharing structure set up in Tito to help keep the peace in Yugoslavia was dissolving after his death. Naturally, to get their profile raised, certain politicians began to appeal to nationalism and fan the flames of ethnic tensions. Tensions turn to hostility which turns into violence.

To illustrate, think back to the Le Pen thing in France. Suppose his anti-immigrant platform was working better than it did, and suppose there was no one like Chirac condemning it. In fact, things got worse when North African French began agitating against ethnic French. Violence is not condemned. Fights happen and things escalate.

Obviously simplified, but not too bad of a description.

11

*Tamerlane originally posted *

Actually, could you post the essay. Did this occur during the Byzantine Empire or during the period of time when Greece was controlled by the Ottoman Empire.

12

Late Roman/ Early Byzantine. Really, my bald statement is a bit of an overstatement. Modern day Greeks, like most people in most places, are a mixture of different folk, in this case including the “original Greeks” ( themselves likely a mixture of Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, Pelasgians, et al ), Slavs, “Roumanians” ( Latins ), and Albanians. But the Slavic component is considered by most authorities to be pretty significant.

In the 6th and 7th century, East Roman/Byzantine control broke down almost completely in mainland Greece ( and possibly even extending to some isles ) as waves of Slavs inundated the Balkans. This lapse of authority varied in intensity and duration in different areas, lasting anywhere from 50 to 200 years. By and large Greek control was reduced to a handful of fortresses and fortified cities, with Slavs controlling ( not in any centralized way - there were no coherent Slav kingdoms here and Avar overlordship was minimal this far south ) the bulk of the countryside, which seems to have been significantly “Slavicized”. This is attested to by both contemporary commentators and the hundreds of Slavic place names ferreted out later by linguists. Of course this trend was reversed in due course as the Byzantine state began its recovery. Said recovery included not only the resettlement of Greeks from Anatolia into parts of Greece, but apparently the resettlement of Slavs into parts of Anatolia ( nothing deliberately reciprocal about this - just the Byzantine policy of resetling excess populations to areas depopulated by war or other reasons ). The later Byzantine state pursued a policy, unofficial or not, of Hellenization ( almost complete in 11th century Anatolia when they Turkish eruption suddenly reversed centuries of work ), so it is not surprising that Greece, sitting so close to the capital, gradually became Greek in language and culture again.

But it is probably still fair to say that ethnically, the Greeks are probably about or almost as Slavic as most of their neighbors ( who themselves absorbed Turkic, Greek, Latin, and Germanic populations, and if you go far enough back probably Indo-Iranians - Apparently many linguists consider the words “Serb” and “Croat” to be Iranian in origin rather than Slavic and may indicate a former ruling aristocracy of Iranian horse-peoples, just as the Bulgars were a Turkic people, perhaps a rump of the old Huns, who came to dominate a much larger Slavic group).

Now on the other hand the Albanians may be just a bit more insular, given the inhospitable nature and low strategic value of their homeland. But it’s all relative - Everybody is related to everybody at some point :).

  • Tamerlane
13

A point which could be important re. your friend opinions :
The NATO attack against Serbia followed the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo by Serbia. Kosovars are ethnically Albanians. There’s an important Albanian minority in Macedonia. And the relations between the Macedonian majority and the large Albanian minority are very tense. Last year, this was the cause of a civil war (though it was limited in duration and extend) in Macedonia. So, you can imagine that the average Macedonian has very few sympathy for the Albanians.
So, it could be that your friend applies the principle : “the ennemies of my ennemies are my friends” and tend to understand/support the former Serbian leader Milosevic.

You should ask him what he thinks about the Albanians/Kosovars. It could perhaps be enlightening.

14

Without banging on about this too much*, there is another, forgotton, group of people involved in this mess - The Roma (Gypsies). These could be the people the OP’s friend is talking about.

Apart from asking how he feels about Albanians/Kosovars ask how he feels about Roma (called “Cigan” in Macedonia).
Kal

*If anyone is interested in what’s happening to the Roma in the former Yugoslavia, do a Google search for “Roma Kosovo”, “Roma Macedonia” or “Roma Yugoslavia”.

15

Thanks Tamerlane, I learned something today that I did not know.