Is this war just another religious conflict? Why don’t we hear that it is in the media? How about the term “Ethnic clensing” it almost sounds “nice”! Any comments?
It’s a lot closer to tribal conflict. 500 years of hatred. We really ought to start dropping nukes on the entire region. In five years or so, we’ll have to rescue the peace loving Serbs from the revenge crazed Albanians. Death seems to be the only thing they desire.
“Ethnic clensing” is how we say “genocide” now. I’m not sure why “genocide” and “mass murder” aren’t being said. It can’t be because we’re still looking for a peace with honor from Slobodan is it?
Thats a pretty stupid statement. Its calld Ethnic cleansing because no one has a better term. Its not Genocide or mass murder because generally they aren’t killing anyone. A quick peek in a dictionary would show that killing is requied for these definitions. Also using extremely inflamitory language would come off as propoganda and therefore be deemed inaccurate and completely false by many.
It’s kinda like when the political extremeists (the NRA, PETA, etc.) who get on TV/Radio and start spewing forth all kinds of ludicrus comments and unfounded claims that their entire point gets lost. When someone who may have three of four solid well supported points and could be willing to find reasonable midle ground says something completely devoid of reason their entire point is lost.
This applies in Yugoslavia. Bad things are happening, Milo is a asshole and needs to be killed, and no propoganda is needed to rally support. The facts are good enough and using inflamitory adjectives and false exxageration would soil any real truth that would be there.
Fact is people aren’t willing to sort out the garbage to hear the real point. So if you point is simple and clear its best not to heap munucia on top of it.
The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw…
Omniscient; BAG
Folks? We are using the term “ethnic cleansing” because that is the term that the locals used in several of the nasty disputes prior to the current one. We know that it means “deportation and (genocidal) murder,” but we use the phrase (somewhat ironically) to identify their actions by their own terminology.
I’m not sure what percent of a population needs to die before it becomes genocide, but the numbers of “missing” males aged 17 to 50 among the refugees indicates that something really bad is going on. The Serbs have not announced any detention camps; I would guess that most of the missing men will be discovered in mass graves (although some may turn up in the Kosovar resistance when the dust settles).
Tom~
inflamitory ?
Tom is right. “Ethnic Cleansing” is a term coined by Serbs themselves. This fact alone speaks volumes about the mindset of the Serbian nationalists in the Balkins. The really scarey thing is that many (if not most) of the Serbian people share this mindset.
We try real hard to not make blanket moral statements about entire societies (“We’re not at war with the Serbian people, we are at war with their leaders”), but in this case it does seem that racism, hatred and ultranationalism is ingrained in the current Serbian culture. The only answer to this sort of societal immorality is probably to do what was done to Germany in 1945; humiliate them militarily and then shove the people’s noses in the horrors they created (or at least allowed).
I know it sounds harsh, but I look forward to the day that the average Begrade citizen is forced to spend a day in Prestina of Sebrinicia digging up mass graves with their bare hands.
What is the religeon of the oppressed? The oppressors? Tnks for your input Carl
Carl, These are generalizations but here goes:
Serbs - Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Christians.
Albaians - Moslems
Bosnians (non-Serb, Non-Croat) - Moslems
Croatians - Catholics
Here you go again papa!
Have you ever met a Serb or talked to one.
Because if you would you would know that they are loving people full of genirosity and spirit. But at times of war they step behind their flag like you do.
If my memory serves me right the Americans did some awful things in Nam. but nobody went beserck and said they were all chaotic, children killing maniacs.
And just as in the states then, people are protesting against Milosivic as we speak in many of the bigger citys og Jugoslavia.
But here’s a thought let’s send Papa to Nam. to plant trees for a millanium.
Have a nice day!
Thor
Thor
Thor,
When is last time you were in Kosovo region?
Yes I agree they are very generous loving people. Just look at how lovingly they place generous amounts of landmines around childcare centers, and in general areas were women and children play…
Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast…
Sorry, Thor, take this kinda crap to the BBQ Pit, eh?
Saying that there are nice Serbs is true, but useless. Saying that Nazis loved little puppies and were nice to their own children is equally useless. Naziism was a murderous political system, and the current political institutions of the Serbs are likewise murderous and barbaric. “Fun loving people with lots of charm and spirit,” my ass, they just happen to use rape and murder as political tools against the minorities they don’t like. The Serbian people (as a collective group) have supported atrocities. Milosevic didn’t do these murders single handed, nor did Hitler. He enlisted the aid of the majority of his people. I’m with PapaBear.
What, you think Milosevic alone is responsible for mass murders? You think Hitler single-handledly slaughtered children? Ludicrous. Wake up. They couldn’t have done those things without the full cooperation of their people.
I’m sure that there are individual Serbs who oppose the “ethnic cleansing” murders. There were plenty of individual Germans who did what they could to help Jews and others escape – Yad VaShem, the Holocaust Memorial in Israel, has a row of trees planted in honour of such people, who defied evil to do the right thing, even when death was the likely penalty when they were caught. They are the exceptions, however, there are all too few of them.
It’s very hopeful if there are Serbs protesting against Milosevic. I wish them luck and blessings. But they are the minority.
Your analogy to America during the Viet Nam war is idiotic. Yes, atrocities are committed during wartime. Accidents happen, and soldiers act in extremis under the heavy emotional pressures. The policy of trying to protect South Vietnam from Communist invasion was misguided, at best. But it was never a policy of extermination. Many of the American soldiers who committed crimes were tried for them.
Your analogy is just piss-poor. Yes, sure, any injury that any human does to any other human is “bad”, but you’re looking at a man who has had his legs shot off, and another who has a small bandage on his hand, and saying the two are equivalent.
If you want to start a thread about U.S. crimes in Viet Nam, by all means do so, but don’t stretch your analogies beyond any credence or credibility.
Oh, whoops, this IS the BBQ pit. Never mind. You can call PapaBear a hypocrite here if you want, and we can call you a horse’s arse.
I’m not justifaying what the Serbs are doing in Kosovo, by any means.
I’m mearly pointing out that there is always more then one side to these things.
Do you think that the Serbs are fed and bread on hate and violence?
If you do I’m sorry for your Idaho!
And if you would read instead of scan you’d see that what I meant was that you can never judge a whole nation, period.
Also, let’s not forget (even though the media has) that the Serbs are not the only nation in the Balcans commiting terryble crimes. 300000 serbs were driven away from their homes in Bosnia by the Kroats. They were slaughert and raped and cleansed.
Of course that does not give them the right to do it to others.
Let’s also throw a new card on the table.
Why don’t the Nato nations bomb Turkey.
I mean they are doing a “good” job cleansing the Kurds in the north. Now they have put their political leader (which they kidnapped from a Greek embassie) on trial to face the death penalty. And there are no international supervisor allowed to attend the trial!!!
THOR
OH, and CKDextHavn nice flagstanding…Two tumbs up 
Thor, IMHO, you need to stop and think a bit before you launch an emotional tirade. You read way too much anti-American propoganda and it’s overcome any sense of proportion or logic.
First: you say not to blame an entire people for the wrongs that its government commit. I dunno about that, I’d say that’s EXACTLY what you blame a people for: failure to hold its government in check, failure to hold its government accountable. The divine right of kings went out quite some time ago.
Second: you imply that NATO shouldn’t bother with helping the Kosovanians against the Serbs since NATO didn’t help the Kurds, the Rwandans, the Tibetans, etc? (I’ll ignore your argument that NATO didn’t help the Native Americans in the last century.) I personally find it shameful that there was no intervention in these other genocides, but that’s not going to stop me from supporting intervention NOW. Just because we failed to do the right thing in the past is no reason to fail to do the right thing now and in the future.
Third: you imply that we should not punish the guy who robs a banks, unless we also punish the guy who took home a pencil from his employer. Both are theft, and you seem to classify them together: specifically, American involvement in Viet Nam you have identified with NATO involvement in Kosovo. Bosh! Most people outgrow those absolute standards by age six, perhaps seven, when they learn that there are Great Evils and Lesser Evils.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not holding America up as blameless or perfect or anything, I’m just suggesting that if you want to offer criticism of America, let’s stay in the field of reality. The techniques you are using are well-worn, have been employed by folks like Khomenei and Stalin.
It is obiusly useless to try to discuss something with a person who thinks killing millions and destroying a country is like stealing a pencil…
I feel very sorry for you!
Have a nice life!
THOR
Sorry, Dex. I shudda warned ya! You’re wasting your breath on this clown. He wouldn’t know a reasoned argument if it bit him.
Too true, Papa Bear; and the strange thing is that it was the government of the United States of American that was the lone holdout within NATO for some time. The rest of the member nations wanted to start the bombing sooner!
Thor:
Unless it’s the United States?
Fractionally off topic, but I just thought would throw this out there:
The US caused 100billion dollars in damage, blew up most of serbias air force, and killed 4000 people, cut its economy in half. and took away a sizeable chunk of their country. All under the premiss of helping out half a million muslims. Why is Osama bin Laden so honked off that he is calling for a muslims to unite in a J’haad against the US?
I wasn’t going to get into this thread, but…
I find it suprising that people believe the “long-standing ethnic hatreds” story. Most of the books I’ve read indicate that this is a rather recent idea. The Serb Croats and Muslims are ethnically similar groups that simply practice different religions. Granted, the religions have long histories, but the people themselves are similar. Also, before the collapse of Yugoslavia intermarriage between different religions was not uncommon (at least in the region of Bosnia).
I highly recommend reading “Bosnia- A Short History” by Noel Malcolm. It’s only about 300 pages, but it’s not bad reading. I’ll get the names of some other books from my buddies if you like. We read a lot of them while we were there. We took turns buying them.