Change is hard. I dread it on anything in my life.
This was no exception.
But, I got here and surprise, surprise it wasn’t too bad.
If the naysayers would keep trying it does get easier.
If I can deal with it anyone can. I’m still in remedial tech class.
Do not get me started on that. If an app is working, I hate being forced to update it.
I can’t even get into remedial tech class yet.
Too many prerequisites I have to pass first~ cable TV remote controls, remote car keys (don’t get me started on hybrid electric cars), Bluetooth ear buds…did I mention smartphones?
Meant with all kindness, is it absolutely necessary that you move? This move will be even more stressful for them than the average Doper. The last thing they need is more change in their already unpredictable lives (I’ve been there). I’m sure your board is a lifeline to many of them.
FWIW, I’m a 4. But I wouldn’t have been when I had cancer.
You really need to be admin, should you want the job.
I was thinking that I’d hate the infinite scroll (I do) but that was about all I knew about Discourse. Turns out I hate not having the mouse-over preview too.
Other than that, I think TubaDiva’s Migration was a huge success; I’m generally very happy with the new software.
I’m in 4. When I was younger, I noticed older people (my parents, etc.) falling into various versions of 1-3. And realized that without a concerted effort, I’d fall into the same trap myself. So I made it a point to relax about these sorts of things, since they mostly aren’t a big deal. I learned a system once and I can learn a new one easily enough. If I keep trying new things, I also get better at learning new things and transitions become less difficult.
Most new things look like a huge step back at first, because you haven’t used it long enough to experience the positives, and so all you see are the negatives. Furthermore, even when some new thing is worse, it’s usually still not a huge deal. For instance, I still absolutely loathe the ribbon bar in Microsoft Office products (13 years later), but ultimately it hasn’t really impacted my use of them. It’s just not worth being angry at it.
Discourse isn’t perfect, but there are some new things I really like about it, and even if vbulletin was 100% reliable I wouldn’t want to go back at this point. Sure, I’d like the best of both worlds but overall I’m very happy.
I remember people saying at the time of the switch that things might look a little different but really everything would stay about the same. That wasn’t true and that created expectations that were not fulfilled.
The transition was manageable only because a great many people were around to answer questions, demonstrate how to do things and where to look, and patiently say the same things over and over as new people came along who couldn’t bother to read any earlier threads. It didn’t help that some of the changes apparently weren’t anticipated by the powers that be. They needed to learn along with us. That was a failure in planning that allowed the changeover to occur too early. Maybe the number of people looking for new stuff was necessarily too small, but the result was hugely problematic.
People who didn’t want to look in every thread for advice and piece it together over time while simultaneously experimenting with all the themes and variations had little hope of mastering the learning curve. I’m betting a huge percentage of those in categories 1 and 2 fell there not because they were old and lazy but because the transition absolutely required huge amounts of time and patience and experimentation - all things we were promised wouldn’t be needed.
I’m making criticisms in hindsight, to be sure, and I don’t know what went on behind the scenes to create the situations. I don’t doubt that several people worked long and hard to make the transition work and they must have wished for twice as many bodies and hours as they had.
But I can’t imagine that a group of older people who have many more important aspects of their lives to devote time and attention to would make it through what happened to us. For them I would advise far greater pre-training and easily found how-tos as well as staff available to hand walk them through problems.
I do like Discourse now, in many ways better than vBulletin. I’ve also been working with computers for 35 years, half my life, and I found the transition infuriating and mystifying until the changes were made and questions were answered. You’ll need to simplify the process by 90%. Good luck.
This is very detailed, thoughtful and valuable. I really appreciate it.
I won’t comment on the stuff about the choice of platform - though I certainly do understand your concerns.
I think the timing of a shift is a really difficult thing to get right. It’s a Heisenberg problem. You can’t possible have all the information and there will always be unknown unknowns.
As a software craftsman, I need people to use my software and give me feedback and the earlier the better so I invite people in to use it. I try to invite Type Four people because it’s just too stressful (for me and for them) to invite people who are more likely to freak out at the changes. But that means the Type Three people are under-represented in my test audience. It’s a conundrum and I don’t k ow to solve it.
This is great thanks.
I’m actually writing the software myself so I can make it as close to the original as I choose. Of course, it won’t be exactly the same (otherwise, why rewrite it?) and I will be moving some buttons around, culling some features and adding others.
I like your point 2. I have been doing that to an extent. I will do more of it.
I didn’t completely understand this. Can you say more?
We really do.
The old software is starting to creak a little. To an extent, we can ameliorate the problems by spending money on hardware but our pockets are not bottomless. Also, old software eventually becomes a security liability and it’s hard to keep up with all the necessary security fixes.
I’m constantly aware of the problems our members face in the real world. That fact alone makes my job special. And our members love us. They really do. That fact makes my job the best job in the world. I’ve had a long career in the software industry and this is the first one that I have truly loved.
I really want to get this transition right.
I celebrate your attitude. If I could sprinkle magic dust is give this attitude to everyone.
I know everything will eventually OK and I wish there was a way to convey this to everyone.
The first few replies, notwithstanding, I expect that most people will eventually look back and say that Discourse was not as bad as it first seemed and that the Straight Dope will thrive here.
When implemented infinite scroll on my site, a lot of people hated it. Some still do, but the vast majority prefer it (our survey said)
Thank you.
We went through a transition once before that was very traumatic for too many people. That was from Listserv to a website so it was dramatically different and there was no way to avoid it. It was also necessary because listserv is dying out. Cancer is (mostly) a disease of older people but even millennials are getting into the age bracket now. Millennials won’t join a listserv.
It will be easier this time, partly because I am older and wiser but also because I’m able to make the new site more closely match the old.
A lot of people have mentioned that cancer patients don’t need the stress of a transition. That was always obvious… but what was less obvious was how many people are on powerful steroids that affect their mood.
Many people in our myeloma community are on a steroid called Dex that they take in a kind of one week on three weeks off kind of schedule and they specifically plan their lives to avoid certain things during an ”on” period. No visits from grandchildren, no vacations. That kind of thing.
After the last transition we had an open house at our office and members who lived nearby we’re invited to come and have a glass of wine and see the man behind the curtain. There was one older lady who came who was mad as hell and wanted everyone to know it.
I later became very good friends with her (she would show up at the office with cake at random times) and she told me she was on dex at the time.
This time around, I will give her a personal tutorial on Zoom and make sure the transition happens during her ”off” period.
This transition to Discourse came at a perfect time for me. I’ve learned a lot both about how to build great software (I think Discourse is great and will be copying a few features) but also about how to manage a transition.
I thought TPTB managed it very well. A certain amount of chaos is to be expected (read up on the Satir Change Model) and the best we can do is to be supportive and help people through.
I have learned a few mistakes to avoid.
I have always wanted to implement badges, for example, but after the reaction here, I won’t be doing that for a while, if ever.
Aside - I don’t think that Discourse does badges very well. Badges can be a great tool for learning - a kind of rolling tutorial for advanced features - or they can be a patronizing attaboy feature. Discourse’s badges are closer to the latter. Add in the entirely predictable effect of thousands of people suddenly receiving a 20-year backlog of badges and the backlash was inevitable. But - type four speaking - it was also obvious and inevitable that the deluge was finite and that the anger was misplaced and, sure enough, I haven’t seen a new badge for ages.
Another feature that I have always wanted to implement is just-in-time advice for people that might need help or advice on how to use the software or about the social conventions of the community.
The most common thread titles that new people choose in our kidney cancer community, for example, are ”kidney cancer” and ”I’m new”. I’ve always wanted to show a popup suggesting that they will get more responses if they choose a more informative title.
Another problem is people writing 5000-word posts WITH NO PARAGRAPHS (or 1000 words in ALl CAPS). Surely they would appreciate a gentle suggestion that all caps are hard to read?
But I just got a discourse popup saying that I am replying too much to this conversation. I was surprised how emotional reaction my reaction.
I won’t be implementing this one for a while either. Clippy has poisoned the well for all eternity.
What you don’t understand is that for a significant number of people, there doesn’t seem to be any point to the “updates” at all, except to be able to say that x is “new and improved”, to saddle the user with even more functions of no interest at all to bog down storage capacity and bandwidth, to force the user to learn yet another altered interface, and to charge more money for the whole experience.
I find the new Dope interface to be less easy to navigate than the old one, and I don’t feel particularly inclined to master it, along with all the other new interfaces I am constantly being forced to master. Yes, it works instead of breaking all the time. That’s the only plus. I visit much less frequently now, and will probably drift away entirely, just because this kind of thing IS a constant and frankly, I totally hate it.
I moved from my phone to my laptop to respond to this thread, I hope I can be helpful.
I have elements of all of 1, 2, and 4. But I think you are looking at 1&2 wrong. For (1) It’s not that (many) people are angry that a button moved, it’s that they are frustrated that they can no longer find the button. And they are struggling with mastering a new “work flow”. (“my fingers knew how to do …”)
And for (2) it’s often about not understanding the logic of the new system. So it feels arbitrary, and again, frustrating. It’s just easier to cope with a rule if it fits into a tidy framework that you understand. And even people who don’t explicitly and consciously understand how a platform works do eventually learn its “physics” and get used to its idioms.
For instance, I find it much easier to get around a new Microsoft product than a new Adobe product. I have many decades of experience working in MS products, and only scores of hours in Adobe products. And so I am much more comfortable with the MS 'idioms". The search button looks like what I expect a search button to look like.
Giving your product an internally consistent idiom will make long-time users enjoy it more. Giving it an idiom similar to something new users are already accustomed to will make it less frustrating to pick up.
Disagree with kevlaw and very much agree with MEBuckner. Today I’m definitely in group 5. This is obviously a vast improvement over a board that was about to die, but I am still using vBulletin for another discussion forum, where it works fine. And while this has a couple of advantages (I like the way multiquote works, for instance) mostly it’s just different, and in a lot of ways I prefer vBulletin. I will write a little about that in a separate post, because this post is already going to be far too long, and “what I like in forum structure” is a different topic than “change management”. I’m trying to stick to “change management” in this post.
Yes. So much this. My number one advice for you is to try to train up some people who are familiar with your system before you migrate, and then offer as much one-on-one hand-holding as you possibly can. Sure, I learned lots of stuff from reading advice to other people. But when you are frustrated that you can’t figure out how to do X, it’s really difficult to search (when you can’t even navigate, maybe) for suitable advice. And who wants to read a whole fine manual? Try to be available (and have other people available, since you are a limited resource) and answer as many questions directly as you can.
You sound awesome, and I wish you all the best with this transition.
I’m just wondering why you’re writing the software yourself rather than getting something off the shelf? You mention dealing with having to deal with security issues in the old software. I would expect that would be something you’ll have to deal with in the new software, and especially since it’s new code with new vulnerabilities.
But as a software developer, think about changing the board interface as if someone changed your programming interface. Imagine you’re working on a Python project using the vi editor and your company says they are instead going to write the program in Go using the Eclipse editor. Even if Go/Eclipse is better than Python/vi, there is still going to be a lot to learn and it’s going to be a while for you to totally be up to speed in the new environment. And then you might have a personal preference for one kind of programming environment over the other regardless over which one is more efficient.
One thing the SDMB has going for it is that it’s a very unique place on the internet, so the audience is more likely to stick around through a change. If it was just a generic place to discuss something like TV shows, there are lots of those on the web and people may just move on to something else. It sounds like your board has a dedicated audience, so I expect there will be grumbling but people will generally stick it out.
System pros & cons, and other interface advice (IMHO)
My biggest frustration with discourse is that I no longer have a sense of “place”. I can’t find things. It supports “categories”, but they almost feel like an afterthought, and whereas in vBulletin the various fora seems central to the experience.
Part of that would be easy to fix. The name of the category is in tiny print and hard to click. When you do click on it, somehow, the screen is cluttered, and you only see the start of a few “topics”, not a vast sea of possible threads to dive into.
The funny thing is that on the old board I usually navigated either by using “user CP” to see which of my subscribed threads had been updated or by using “new threads”, and both of those sorta work here…
Actually, no, one thing I really miss is “user CP”, which showed me all my subscribed threads ordered by how recently they’d bee updated, and highlighted the ones in which I hadn’t yet read the updates. I really dislike how a thread I’ve participated in “goes away” from those lists once I read it. I think that contributes a lot to my feeling of being disoriented, and that the board is just showing me a random list of topics.
It seems like a small thing, but it’s really affected my engagement, and I find myself popping over here and then leaving because I feel unsatisfied by the experience.
So… that and missing the more complete list of threads in a forum are the two things I dislike most about Discourse.
Oh – and it’s slow. I think I often have connectivity glitches, or a poor connection. Or maybe I have too many saved pages in my browser and it’s a computational issue. But this new site’s initial load when I haven’t been here for a while is SOooooo slow, especially on my phone. Popping between this and my other vBulletin site on my phone, I sometimes give up on this one because it’s so damn slow.
I’m not in love with infinite scrolling, but that’s more a “meh, take it or leave it” thing for me.
I do like that this displays at a comfortable font size on my phone. I usually pull down my glasses and look over them (I’m very nearsighted) to read vBulletin. Yeah, there was a skin that fixed that issue, but it was broken in other ways. And maybe it’s hard in vBulletin, because my other site is better than this one was, but it’s not super on mobile, either.
And I mentioned above that I like how multi-quoting works here. And I like how it indicates who you are quoting, and makes it easy to peek at the post quoted, or the one that quotes a post. Those are really nice features, imo, if imperfectly implemented.
I also feel that in an attempt to make the experience as similar to the old board as possible, a lot of the potential improvements to discourse have been neutered. For instance:
Default Discourse handles editing really well – it allows users to edit their posts indefinitely and ALSO allows everyone else to see that the post has been edited and what it used to say. But the editing has been limited to a few minutes and somehow the “see what was there before” got broken.
Default Discourse allows community moderation. I find this an intriguing feature, and wonder if it wouldn’t lead to more user engagement, as experienced users would feel that they are directly responsible for maintaining the board. I also wonder if it might lead to a friendlier experience, if “trusted” members felt responsible for helping and guiding newbies. This place is great for its intelligence and knowledge, but it can be pretty nasty to newbies, heaping scorn on a new poster who responds to an old thread, for instance. (“Oh, you stupid person, you have awakened a zombie”) I wonder experienced users would rise to expectations if they were actually granted more trust.
I dunno, maybe they would just gang up even more effectively on newbies. But it’s an interesting concept, and I’d love to see it succeed.
I think the “like” button could have been useful. Often, all you really want to say is “yeah, that guy had some insight”. Sometimes I think it’s not obvious that the majority of readers in a topic are in agreement, and it looks like there’s a real argument going on because people don’t want to bother to post “I’m with Alex”.
I dunno. As you said, the Discourse badges are pretty condescending. That doesn’t mean badges in general are a bad thing. I’ve been learning Discourse at about the same time I’ve been learning Minecraft. Minecraft has a bunch of “achievements”. Earning those usually makes me smile, and I’ve even gone to see what others are available, and might actively try to get one or two.
I don’t think I’ve ever smiled from a Discourse badge. I think that’s because Discourse implemented badges poorly, not because badges are a bad idea. But, if you do implement badges — if a lot of users will have already earned badges based on prior posting, for God’s sakes, just add it to their list of badges, don’t have the system announce it as soon as they are set up. Getting a flurry of announcements about stuff you did 5 years ago is just annoying.
[quote=“filmore, post:37, topic:917400”]
I’m just wondering why you’re writing the software yourself rather than getting something off the shelf? [/quote]
There are several reasons.
Our site is based around tags (we call them topics) rather than separate forums. There is a lot of overlap in discussions about kidney cancer and melanoma, for example they both take a drug called keytruda so we have tags (topics) for kidney cancer, melanoma and keytruda. Cross-posting is encouraged. In that regard, it’s more like Twitter than a traditional message board like the Straight Dope. People follow topics rather than join forums.
Other platforms also support tags but they’re usually secondary to some other organisational principle. Back when we started (pre-discourse) no one else really had something like that. If Discourse had existed back then, maybe we would have made a different decision.
8 years later, we want to minimize the changes for our users. Plus we can think we can build a better platform (for our users) than something else off the shelf. We have a lot of experience now.
It’s not that we had security (or have) security issues. It’s that it gets harder and harder to keep up with updates in library software and other infrastructure once you get behind.
This.
I’m with puzzlegal. I’m a ‘newbie’. I get scorn heaped on me most days. Seems like a blood sport for many seasoned posters. Cut us some slack, offer non-judgemental help, explain how things work, what the SD customs and traditions are, above all, be kind.
I never ‘couldn’t be bothered to read something’-I was stymied trying to figure out how to get to what I needed to read or how to phrase the question I needed answered. You can’t read something you can’t get to. Don’t make user help opaque or tortuous or an insiders resource.
Ok, I’m done now. BTW, I like everyone’s attitude here-feels inclusive and beneficent. Wish I’d found it sooner, before all that scorn.