What were you THINKING?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

I butted heads with them in the “Was Fukushima a nuclear disaster” thread, where I found them exceedingly obstinate.

…I mean, I kept telling you that I wasn’t anti-nuclear, but you insisted I was taking an anti-nuclear stance.

Then you took it to another thread. And continued to insist I said something I didn’t. And now you’ve taken it to another thread again.

This isn’t a “me” problem. You keep dragging that stupid thread up as if it means anything. Get a fucking life already.

@Babale

I think BB is extremely naive, and tends to latch on to sources that seem authoritative (Gazan hospital directors or Japanese disaster response teams) and then dismiss conflicting information in highly moralistic terms (so US DoE studies on the harms of radiation are compared to Fallout-universe propaganda even if BB conceeds that their content is factually true, for example).

The TLDR version of this is I was right about Al Shifa, I was right about all of the other hospitals, you were wrong, and now you are deflecting. I’ve provided multiple cites that weren’t based on the words of Gazan hospital directors, you’ve provided jack shit. The hospitals shouldn’t have been shut down. All of them should still be operating.

@Smapti

is a “child”, who yells “Allahu akbar!”

It was a child. No need for scare quotes.

And Allahu akbar!” doesn’t say anything about this hypothetical child’s allegiance. Its a perfectly normal, common expression that you decided to use in this scenario to make sure that everybody knew that in your mind, this child was the bad guy.

It was an open display of Islamophobia, with a dash of racism on the side. Coupled with your open dismissal of the laws of war in that thread, where if you are Palestinian you don’t deserve the same protections as other people, conflating the death of Palestinian children with aborted fetuses, you really have shown yourself to be a horrible, sad, disgusting creature.

And I’m going to block you now. I don’t need to hear from you ever again.

[Smapti]

@Banquet_Bear

And I’m going to block you now. I don’t need to hear from you ever again.

I think that establishes my point quite nicely that you would rather stick your fingers in your ears and ignore any trace of nuance, subtlety, or moral ambiguity that stands in the way of declaring “X is always right and Y is always wrong no matter what”.

See ya in the funny papers.

[Atamasama]

@ParallelLines

And they (Banquet_Bear) seems to always side with the underdog, at least as long as there’s any moral equivalency involved in the conflict. Sometimes even if -I- perceive that there’s no/minimal moral ambiguity, they do.

I have a conflicted opinion of BB.

I disagree with BB frequently, but also admire BB, and for the same thing.

I don’t always think the underdog is correct. The world isn’t that simple. But I still have to respect someone who will always defend the underdog.

[iiandyiiii]

I think you’re being somewhat dumb on this. I don’t agree with everything Banquet_Bear has said, but you appear to be refusing and attacking any skepticism or criticism of Israeli strategy and IDF actions. There is a clear bad guy here - Hamas - but Gazan civilians are largely the ones suffering. And while much of the blame lies with Hamas, much of it also lies with the Israeli government which largely cooperated with the rise of Hamas for decades as well as preventing much progress in Gaza and working against the two state solution.

[Smapti]

@iiandyiiii

There is a clear bad guy here - Hamas

Well, that’s more than some have been willing to accept.

@iiandyiiii

but Gazan civilians are largely the ones suffering. And while much of the blame lies with Hamas, much of it also lies with the Israeli government which largely cooperated with the rise of Hamas for decades as well as preventing much progress in Gaza and working against the two state solution.

I agree that civilian suffering is bad. Where B_B and I differ is that they are unwilling to accept that there can and must be acceptable levels of civilian suffering in any war, because such is inevitable, and if any level of suffering is unacceptable, then one would have to conclude that all war is immoral, which is a nonstarter.

Israel has definitely made mistakes that allowed Hamas to get to the point where 10/7 became possible, and I’m hopeful that the people of Israel will hold their government accountable for that in the next election.

[iiandyiiii]

I think Banquet Bear has successfully made the point that, at the very least, Israel and the IDF could and should be doing better in terms of minimizing civilian harm while trying to destroy Hamas. The civilian suffering really is appalling. IIRC, Biden has made the same point to Netanyahu.

[MrDibble]

All war is immoral. Some is less immoraĺ than others. Slaughter of defenceless innocents is not at that end of the scales. No matter which side does it.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

The TLDR version of this is I was right about Al Shifa,

I will never understand how you can say that with a straight face.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

I will never understand how you can say that with a straight face.

…I said that there wasn’t a command and control bunker under Al Shifa and there wasn’t.

This presentation was a lie.

Hamas HQ Hidden Under Gaza's Largest Hospital

The audio that they used in that presentation turned out to be a lie.

This video mock-up of what the bunkers looked like turned out to be a lie.

Home to Hamas' Headquarters, This is an IDF 3D Diagram of the Shifa Hospital:

I said all of this well before the Al Shifa raid. I said the evidence didn’t stack up. I said that under the Geneva Conventions and the rules of war, Israel didn’t have a case to make Al Shifa a target. And I was right.

What I didn’t know at the time was that not only were they going to be so brazen as to raid the hospital, but they were also going to continue to deny most of those seeking shelter at the hospital food and water, but would then expel most of the patients and all of those seeking shelter from the hospital. I didn’t expect that the IDF would go so far as to make the hospital non-functional. To make it no longer a hospital any more. A blatant and obvious war crime.

And they did the same to 20 other hospitals.

[thorny_locust]

@ParallelLines

I have often found BB to fond of moral absolutes.

The problem is when moral absolutes run head-on into each other. This, I think, is what BB refuses to acknowledge.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

It’s also a problem when moral absolutes collide with messy reality.

[thorny_locust]

I think the messy reality is that moral absolutes often do collide with each other.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Indeed. Which is one reason why moral absolutes work a helluva lot better in theoretical discussions than in assessing real situations.

[Babale]

Which is why I am a utilitarian, not a deontologist.

I guess the thing that throws me a bit is that I have come to expect this kind of moral framework from the right, especially the religious right. Seeing it on the left is a bit jarring. It feels a bit like seeing someone get the right answer circled on the bottom of a math test, but the process they used to get that answer it is utterly incomprehensible gibberish.

[ASL_v2.0]

I cannot find fault in a single thing @Banquet_Bear has said in the Israel-Hamas thread. I only wish I had the same energy and patience (with people who are at best willing to turn a blind eye to war crimes, and at worst eagerly endorse war crimes for “reasons”) to make such arguments.

@Babale

Which is why I am a utilitarian, not a deontologist.

Odd, because utilitarianism is what has led me to conclude that what the IDF is doing in Gaza is morally abhorrent. How many Palestinian lives should be sacrificed at the altar of going after a few Hamas ring leaders?

FWIW, I have come to adopt the same attitude towards the US invasion and occupation of Afghanistan: even if bin Laden had been there to be captured, how many Afghan lives were worth his? Certainly not what it actually cost to find him. We might have estimated as much 20+ years ago.

[Babale]

@ASL_v2.0

How many Palestinian lives should be sacrificed at the altar of going after a few Hamas ring leaders?

The goal of the war is not to kill Hamas leaders. It is to remove Hamas from power in Gaza.

The alternative is to leave Hamas in power in Gaza and ensure that the cycle of Hamas terrorism > Israeli response continues in perpetuity, and as we have seen, the cost of that is borne primarily by the Palestinians themselves.

[BigT]

@Babale

The goal of the war is not to kill Hamas leaders. It is to remove Hamas from power in Gaza.

The alternative is to leave Hamas in power in Gaza and ensure that the cycle of Hamas terrorism > Israeli response continues in perpetuity, and as we have seen, the cost of that is borne primarily by the Palestinians themselves. ⁢

If you’re truly utilitarian, then their goal doesn’t matter. All that matters is the outcome. It shouldn’t bother you if others think the Israeli government’s goal is different than you do.

And the outcome here is the problem. Yes, killing Hamas operatives would weaken them. But killing innocent Gazans only strengthens them. Every civilian death causes fence sitters to become sympathizers and sympathizers to become new recruits. Hamas specifically attacked in order to create the very response that Israel has chosen.

Fortunately, you’re also have created a false dichotomy. The choices are not the current tactics vs. doing nothing. They could slow down and go for more targeted strikes. They could start acting as Gaza’s EMT, and try to ameliorate suffering and undermine Hamas’s claim that they are the bad guys. They could have a measured response. That’s basically what every country told them to do, but it’s Israel, and Israel doesn’t listen to outsiders–especially when a right-wing government is in charge.

It really does seem like Israel right now values Gazan lives less than Israeli lives. They are okay with them being collateral damage. And that is largely what has turned so much of the world against them, to the point that all but the US voted in the UN to tell them they need to change tactics. They were attacked by terrorists, which should make them sympathetic, but then they’re pulling a Bush/Iraq thing and turning everyone against them.

Israel is screwing this up. Because, at the end of the day, war is just politics by other means. And Israel is losing allies and doing exactly what Hamas wanted. They are responding in anger, and not in prudence.

The amount of lives being lost is massive, more than died on either side since 1982. Several times more than have died in the Ukraine conflict, or died in our wars against Iraq and Afghanistan.

I support Israel’s right to exist. I hate Hamas. But I side completely against Israel’s actions here. I don’t actually question Israel’s motives. But I also don’t think they matter as long as they seem to continue see Gazans as lesser. And I still can’t get past them doing exactly what Hamas wanted them to do.

And, FYI, I find this position (which also seems to be the position of Banquet Bear) is the norm on the left. I don’t know where you got the idea that the left is usually utilitarian. That doesn’t fit the “bleeding heart liberal” at all. It’s actually hard to get a strong progressive to not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

[Babale]

@BigT

And the outcome here is the problem. Yes, killing Hamas operatives would weaken them. But killing innocent Gazans only strengthens them. Every civilian death causes fence sitters to become sympathizers and sympathizers to become new recruits. Hamas specifically attacked in order to create the very response that Israel has chosen.

War isn’t just about killing people. First of all, I don’t really think Israeli strikes are particularly indiscriminate. If the ratio that Hamas estimates of 2 to 1 is true, that’s actually pretty dang good for this kind of urban warfare, which is always hell incarnate. But aside from that, Israel is making massive gains in territorial control against Hamas. Many of the densest urban areas have already fallen. Eventually the IDF will control the entire strip, at which point the kinds of operations it currently engages in will cease, and the most important work - rebuilding Gaza and handing it over to a government that will actually work towards peace and towards the betterment of the Palestinians - can begin. I don’t see that territory as part of your equation at all, and this is a far more important part of current operations than simply killing indovidual terrorists.

@BigT

It really does seem like Israel right now values Gazan lives less than Israeli lives. They are okay with them being collateral damage. And that is largely what has turned so much of the world against them, to the point that all but the US voted in the UN to tell them they need to change tactics.

Are you kidding me? The UN didn’t suddenly turn against Israel. Year after year, the UN passes more resolutions targeting Israel than any other country; often more than all other countries combined. The UN being incredibly biased against Israel is not a new development.

@BigT

I don’t know where you got the idea that the left is usually utilitarian. That doesn’t fit the “bleeding heart liberal” at all. It’s actually hard to get a strong progressive to not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

I guess I typically view the stereotypical “bleeding heart liberal” as a conservative strawman rather than something that actually exists? I’ve seen it tossed around as a pejorative, I haven’t seen anyone whose behavior I’d actually describe that way - in person/real life, at least.

[Sylvanz]

I will be interested to see if Gaza is indeed handed back over to the Palestinians to govern. That is if there are any Palestinians left to govern. I’m sure Israel has plenty of settlers that would be glad to do the job.

[ParallelLines]

I think we’ve moved beyond criticism or defense of @Banquet_Bear and onto yet ANOTHER debate of the ongoing war. So, if that’s the intent, I’ll politely ask you to take it to another thread unless it’s about a specific poster who doesn’t have their own Pit thread.

Please.