Oh, jeez, tell me about it! Here I am in my middle 70s now, with decades of becoming enlightened (or having enlightenment thrust upon me) and STILL that crap tries to shove its way into my thinking! Sad to say, I don’t think most people can ever entirely expunge the mental habits we acquired in our childhood; they’re too firmly baked in; the best we can do is recognize them when they try to take over and consciously refuse to let them govern our actions and words.
When I was in high school, I had mostly gay friends. Sometimes I accompanied them to gay clubs and sometimes we hung out with drag queens. It felt very cutting edge liberal at the time. I don’t think a single damn one of us ever thought about the trans experience. I don’t remember anything specific, but there were a lot of stupid assumptions if we thought about it at all. Understanding wouldn’t come until much, much later. It’s really just a function of privilege when the reality of gender is as invisible as the air you breathe and you have to really make a conscious effort to step outside of that and realize how much of it is constructed. And I am a cis woman who is perhaps unusually attached to my gender identity so that is a process for me, too. I think about it all the time as I write heteronormative romance and how I balance my identification with being a woman with constructed gender roles and expectations.
This isn’t easy stuff. It’s “a lifetime of work” kind of stuff.
She just has a strong tendency toward martyrdom. Any slight criticism or feedback and it’s time to drag out the cross.
Unless some of us had extremely remarkable parents who were also very insular, that’s probably true of all of us on the Dope, to one extent or another.
I read @Beckdawrek as self deprecating humour, in the most part. I’m not seeing a martyrdom complex. She’s making light of her life, and sharing that.
And she is willing to learn. Every time she comes with an opinion that can be seen as slightly bigoted, she listens, argues and change when she has understood.
No martyring, just processing a new thought
Does she really though? Because I didn’t see that in that thread at all. She just whines she’s being persecuted and then says she won’t post anymore. She doesn’t actually say she has learned anything except not to say what’s in her head.
Trying to find a way to say this as nicely as possible but if that is what you learned then you’ve not really learned much.
Posters here are vouching for your desire to open your mind and learn. I am cynical that even those who are trying hard can achieve awareness of the many ways in which we implicitly do and say things that are bigoted and promote structural bigotry. I know I try and know that I am unaware of how I fail. I require others to point it out and need to work hard at not defaulting into immediate denial. It will always be a work in progress.
I’d love to see something that shows they are correct?
I laughed when I read that. Such an interesting visual.
That’s my read too (and it has not been my perception of Beck in the past, so that is troubling).
I don’t know what to say.
I’ve learned. I was schooled very nicely by a person via PM.
I see what my problem was, and why I misunderstood the whole thing.
It was all me. I thought wrongly.
I can’t say I get it completely or understand all the nuances. But I will read and learn more.
I second this, and think it bears repeating. I also think that using that kind of language is weasely, and should have been moderated as a personal insult (assuming that mods consider calling someone a bigot to be a personal insult).
I didn’t read the thread in question, so I suppose my opinion is worth, well, not much. However, in my limited experience Beck is a decent person bumbling along like the rest of us. I think some of the comments are a bit harsh, but pit and all so there is that. If you are learning Beck you’re doing the right thing. Learning is life long and sometimes it’s hard.
Ok, Gender: I don’t care how you Identify as long it makes you happy. It has no negative affect on my life. It’s probably positive because happy people make a happy community. I will use whatever pronouns you like. I’m all in support of calling people, the names, pronouns, etc. they want.
Cis was a new thing to me some years ago and I had to ask what it meant. I had, in the past, considered that to be, “Straight.” Of course, that was before I became aware of the vast continuum that is gender and gender identification and all the permutations etc. etc.
I identify as a basic cis woman. No big deal, it’s just who I am, though yes I’d be bothered if someone thought I was male (though it’s never happened.) I think some? many? people have a problem with being identified as the “wrong” gender. I understand that in context of our culture and the individual person’s psychology. Seriously, trans people identify as different from their birth assignment. I don’t think they would like to be misgendered either. It depends on how important your gender is to your identity. I think a lot of things go into how you see your self. It depends on the individual as to how important each thing is. Sometimes it’s what you do, how you look, what you believe. It’s complicated.
No one is saying she is not.
The idea that decent people can’t have bigoted beliefs is problematic. It prevents improvement.
Most of us are decent people. Most of us can’t help but have bigoted beliefs underneath as shown by actions. Step one, recognizing that, is just step one. Most of us here like to think we’ve gotten to that step. Changing how we act on those implicit beliefs is a very challenging step two and few us take to our having our implicit bigotry called out well. Maybe getting better at that should be my New Year Resolution…
Step one alone is insufficient. And it is necessary.
Happy to read that a private conversation has helped her. Because I do think she is a decent person who means well.
Gender issues are difficult for us old cis farts. I have been schooled by friends and have some idea why I shouldn’t deadname and misgender.
Mainly I just try doing what people want. It doesn’t matter to me, but can be deathly serious to someone else. That’s enough for me.
I’m just picking one of many excellent points you’ve made. I’d modify the second part slightly to “all of us have bigoted assumptions underlying our beliefs.” I don’t believe that white men are the default and other people should be defined by their variation from that norm. But I have deeply ingrained unconscious assumptions that sometimes cause me to act like that is the case. Recognizing that is half the battle. Listening to others when they call me out is the other half.
Beck, I truly believe you are trying to learn and be respectful to others. But I’m not yet convinced you are learning the right thing. Yes, it’s important to recognize that we don’t need to say every thought that pops into our heads. But I hope the general lesson you take from this is that it’s important to consider others’ perspectives and not just centralize yours. “It’s difficult for me to learn” is one side of the coin. “It’s really important to them” is the other side, and both sides should be considered.
I can also identify with others who don’t like the “cis” identifier. I understand it’s purpose, and I definitely don’t like the idea of insisting on not being tagged with it (because insisting on being just “male” in a discussion with trans men is clearly insulting to them).
I haven’t liked “cis” because my first interactions with it were negative. Cis people were being equated with “bigoted”. I don’t doubt for a second that cis white men like myself have been the source of the majority of bigotry the last several centuries, and I’ve certainly held bigoted views in the past - but I’m working on it. We have to be the change we want to see, and if marginalized people are going to lump me into a preconceived pile, I don’t have a lot of incentive to be an ally in that discussion.
The singular they is a struggle for me. I understand prescriptive/descriptive. Hell, I wrote/did a project in my capstone English class about the singular they. It was before I was aware of the gender issues surrounding it. The paper dealt with how recent the singular they is and the grammar and language implications. I did well, and I researched it deeply. I still have problems hearing it, but I use it when requested and appropriate. Exp. if I am unaware of the person’s gender or identity. For some reason it sort of grinds me. I know it’s stupid, but I’m working on it.
Amen.