I just came here to post that exact same Whack a mole thread.
He doesn’t read/understand/like the answer so all he does is repeat the exact same question in every single one of his posts in that thread. Even though it was answered in the first reply.
Epic post. So on point.
I just wanted to say that.
You seem to be very keen on pointing fingers at an issue that you seem to have no interest in understanding.
The Roma are not an ‘immigrant group’. This is a full-fledged society which has existed on the margins of European society for centuries. Yes, there has been bigotry from the mainstream side, but the group also actively reject mainstream society. Even contact with outsiders is seen as ‘polluting’, and something to be avoided. Making friends outside the community might get you beaten up (if you’re female especially), actually leaving will get you shunned by everyone you know, and bring shame on the family. If Roma society was compatible with mainstream society, it would have been absorbed generations ago.
Many individual Roma have opted to leave the culture. The issues are pretty much entirely those who have opted to stay in the traditional society, which yes, includes the kids who have no say, and, to an extent, those who want to leave, but have been intentionally underequipped by their upbringing to know how. Well, that’s the government’s fault! I hear you angrily trumpet.
There are loads of programmes across Europe aimed trying to help Roma people get issues fixed, but they have to work with the culture. The friend I mentioned who worked with Roma kids trying to help them get schooling? Half the time they were just barred from entry to the site, several times they were thrown out (probably because the one guy who had invited them wasn’t there), and several times the kid she was just starting to make progress with just vanished. Gone to live with a relative somewhere, supposedly, but no-one would say where or give any more information. You can find guides online to working with the Roma- aimed at NGOs and government workers- and similar stories are really common. There could probably be more support for those who opt to leave, but they tend to run in to the same issues.
The people in Roma society who actually have the power- typically older men- want things to stay as they are. They’ve worked hard to be on top, they don’t think they’re marginalised at all. They believe they’re carrying on a rich cultural tradition as their ancestors have for centuries. Do other Roma still in the community agree? Probably many do, yes; it’s not inherently abusive, although it’s an environment where abuse can flourish. Many people who left talk about how free the childhood was, and if your Dad and/or husband is a decent guy it’s fine, but it’s all tied up in the same set of traditions.
This isn’t just a society that ignores national boundaries and always has, it doesn’t respect anyone else’s claim to own land- as they traditionally own none themselves. That sounds lovely and free until you realise this could mean 40 people arriving overnight and setting up camp in a school playing field, a business parking area, a field of crops, then staying for a week until forced to move, leaving a pile of trash. It’s a society that traditionally does not consider a written contract as binding- nor is any agreement with someone outside of the society, and a society that considers personal ties far more important than the law; any attempt to arrest someone for theft of violence will often trigger violent resistance from their whole extended family, who will also come together to help them hide somewhere else. If an outsider angers someone in the Roma community they’ll often get their car or house set on fire, or just beaten up, but no-one will know anything and you can’t just arrest a camp of 40 people.
Personally I actually suspect it’s basically a tactic at this point; intentionally pissing everyone else off is a really good way to stop members of the group from leaving. I suspect back when travelling and selling goods was a viable way to make a living, and migrant working wasn’t regulated, there was far less direct conflict. And that went both ways, when healthcare was crap everywhere, the traditional option was fine. But now society is full of rules and taxes and - aside from occasional handicrafts - there’s nothing mainstream society really wants from the traditional, travelling Roma community, but Roma society needs everyone else far more than they used to. It’s gone from an uneasy coexistence to an actual problem. Roma following the traditional lifestyle are now widely living as beggars, scammers and straight up thieves, because the alternative is settling down and following rules set by outsiders instead of their own, and that means abandoning most of their culture except the stuff like songs and handicrafts.
Discrimination against someone because they’re ethnically Roma is obviously unacceptable, but having an issue with traditional Roma society as it currently stands is about as reasonable as objecting to sovereign citizens. Both groups seem to think citizenship is available as an a la carte menu (one government funded healthcare please, hold the taxes and civic responsibility).
So how to move forwards? There is no way to simply allow all Roma to fully participate in mainstream European society without either removing all citizenship and residency laws - against the will of almost all of the existing citizens- or completely destroying the structure and tradition of Roma society, which would certainly require violence and constant surveillance.
It’s ridiculous to complain about a society being discriminated against while also calling for the dismantling of that society. You cannot pick and choose which parts of someone else’s tradition are followed by them. You cannot prevent abuse if you can’t find out it’s happening until years after the fact. You cannot force people to value what you value. Helping people to stop being oppressed by a society they support and don’t believe is oppressing them is complex, and it’s silly to pretend that it isn’t.
So European countries have tried to find alternatives, historically in pretty awful ways, but in recent years it’s been by slowly and carefully working with the Roma community to try and find compromises everyone can agree with. There’s official sites to stay in, mobile schools that follow travelling groups, houses for those who agree to settle, programmes to help ethnically Roma people integrate as they want, attempts to find the people in the group who want an alternative. It’s slow, and it can’t catch everyone, and there’s obviously always improvements that could be made, but it’s a lot more sensible than wading in blindly and assuming a law change will magically make everything better. It won’t.
Carry on with dealing with the problems in the US, sounds like you’re doing a good job, but it’s a wildly different situation to the one that Europe is dealing with with Roma society.
Also an epic post. It’s clear the two of you are talking about two entirely different issues and concerns, with your personal experiences, cultures and backgrounds coloring your observations.
Just wanted to say that, too. And I’ve learned from both of you.
Well you do you… but I’m gay and I find the whole topic funny as shit… who the fuck would put a gerbil in their ass?
… and from first hand experience, when you vomit* up cum after swallowing. It looks kind of like curdled milk.
I have a sensitive gag reflex… and when I moved on to the next guy at the party… he was too big… needless to say that ended the night.
You’d be surprised, sometimes there’s a marine biologist in the group but they’d prefer to live a lie and pretend they’re something else.
Look, he’s a whale biologist. He calls it like he sees it.
You know homophobia is still common, right?
Just checking.
I grew up in the 90s and almost all of my closest friends were some closeted from of LGBTQ. You saw lots of bullying (I always stood up to) and heard lots of slurs. Some of my friends were kicked out of their homes for being gay. One had all of his letters and mementos from us shredded and was moved halfway across the country so that we couldn’t influence him.
While I see more openly gay kids today, the level of vitriol expressed by the current government and Trump’s supporters really seems like a different level. Is it worse? I don’t know. But it doesn’t seem better.
I have a cousin, who has a gay brother, who won’t send her kindergarten-aged kid to public school because she’s scared of LGBTQ indoctrination.
To be honest, a lot of things seem worse right now than they did in the 90s. Maybe it’s looking back with rose colored glasses to think so. But I remember it as a hopeful time for women.
Me too
Absolutely yes, I know this. I probably should have worded that as “open, blatant homophobia was common and socially acceptable.”
Yeah; growing up, homophobia seemed to be the default. Now it’s something that still exists, but it’s no longer something people openly express with impunity. We’ve come a long way, but there is still a long way to go, and those currently in power are trying to do what they can to stop or reverse that progress.
I have a former journalist friend from Bratislava who 32 (!) years ago sent me a long magazine piece pretty much confirming everything you’ve stated. I no longer have the piece she sent me, or I’d link to it. It sounds like a complex problem without tidy answers.
If you think anyone interested in blue jeans and roller rinks gives a damn, you have another thing coming. What a stupid fucking hijack.
You’ve got another think coming.
You lost that fight to Judas Priest decades ago.
Last I heard, both versions were common, and nobody could definitively pin down which was first.
I don’t think we’ll all be able to toe the line on that one.
That’s discussed in the article that I linked in the other thread. When I had to hold back from saying that Johanna was being an insufferable twit.
So who gives a fuck about Judas Priest in the first place?
I have a lot of unresolved rage about the threats to my human rights right now, and I’m lashing out randomly. It’s impossible to separate any discussion from the fascist menace currently destroying everything we care about.