What would it take for not tipping to become socially acceptable in North America?

As I have already stated in one or two threads, I belong to the camp that dislikes the social custom of tipping and would like to see it end. Specifically, my gripe is that in (for example) North America, tipping is required by social convention: when you go to a sit-down restaurant, you are presented with a bill with a price but, although it is perfectly legal to pay only that price, you are expected to “voluntarily” top it up by up to 20% and if you don’t, the waitstaff is likely to resent you and you are guilted with the claim that you are cheating them of their fair earnings due to the existence of a lower minimum wage for tipped employees (not true in all jurisdictions: a handful, such as Alberta and California, require even tipped employees to get the full minimum wage rate). I certainly consider the very existence of lower minimum wages for tipped employees to be an injustice that I would start with eliminating completely. But would that be enough, or would more have to be done to make it socially acceptable not to tip under any circumstances?

What about what they did in France: there they have a system mandated by law where a service charge is automatically levied and it says on your bill that the service is included. As I understand from online sources, in France, tips are now entirely optional, though many people still round off their bill. (It’s not clear to me whether the service charge is included in the prices listed on the menu or added on separately to the total). Would doing this do the trick?

Or would it be necessary to outright ban tipping by law? I don’t necessarily suggest we go that route if a less drastic solution would be found, though if I had to choose between a system where leaving a tip were illegal even if you wanted to leave one and the current system where you are threatened with social censure and emotionally blackmailed into leaving a tip, I personally would prefer the option of making tips illegal.

I have read several articles online where some restaurants in New York tried to go non-tipping and then were forced to go back to it because 1) customers had a psychological problem with the raised prices (I would be under no such delusion - I would be fully aware that it replaces a tip); 2) some of them like to tip because it makes them feel empowered to reward or punish waiters (a bit of a fallacy); 3) some waiters themselves preferred receiving a lower tipped minimum wage + tips than a fixed wage because they ended up making more (to this I say all right, but then you are basically extorting me, the customer. If you reject a fixed wage that surpasses the lower tipped minimum wage because you’ll earn more with my tips and a lower tipped wage, then you are basically making a profit off your sob story about how if I don’t tip you, you earn almost nothing - see where I’m going with this?) This article is a good source on these issues.

What will be necessary in order for it to become socially acceptable in North America to just pay your bill and leave in sit-down restaurants (and elsewhere in the service industry) like you do in McDonalds or in any shop?

Disclaimer: I do realize that base prices would have to rise in restaurants in order for this to be feasible, but I think it would be OK if the rise did not require you to pay more than you would with a normal tip and if it were clearly stated that no further tips are necessary. I simply want the benefit of being given a final price that doesn’t require me to add anything to it or do math, or put otherwise, of having an intellectually honest right to pay only the price on the menu and of not being saddled with part of the business owner’s payroll.

For me, this is the wrong forum for the language required for another GQP **** looking to cut tipping like he wants his taxes cut.

In a perfect world, even raising this subject would lead to Mandatory Doubling of all taxes ( and invalidation of all deductions on same ).

I’m not sure how to do it, but I’m pretty sure that just adding in the gratuity on the bill would not do it.

It’s a cultural norm now, and it will take more than just a logical replacement to stop it. Not tipping is associated with being a cheapskate, out of touch, or possibly overly demanding of service people (and more). Being a big tipper also has baggage. It can mean you’re generous, know what service jobs are like, have money to burn, are naïve, and more.

Just making a logical replacement doesn’t eliminate the cultural baggage. If you added a service charge, some people would stop tipping, but some would not want to be seen as a cheapskate, or would want to show how generous they are. If you made tipping illegal, you’d get more cash tips, and still have the baggage.

I do think these ideas would get some people to stop, but I don’t think it would break the norm altogether.

It wouldn’t have to be made illegal by law. Pay the waitstaff (at least) the regular minimum wage, change your menu prices accordingly* and you, the owner of the restaurant decide how much to pay your employees or whether to continue their employment instead of relying on customers to do it for you.

FWIW, if it’s even related, at my business we do some deliveries and when I talk to the customer I’ll often get asked if they should tip the delivery person. My response is 'They’re on the clock, they get paid well, they’re driving our cars with our insurance and gas we paid for and there’s a delivery fee to cover all that, you certainly can toss them a few bucks if you really to, but they’re not expecting (or relying on) it." Said another way ‘they’re not getting paid like waitstaff and our prices reflect that’.

*This is the important part. Charge what you need to charge to cover the cost of paying the waitstaff enough. Don’t screw around with mandatory tips or service charges or whatever. If a meal that you sell for $8 now needs to be $11, Change it to $11.

I see a lot of ‘our staff relies on your tips’ signs when there should be more signs like this:

ETA, and of course the obligatory 3rd Rock tipping scene:

It will never happen. There will always be servers who deserve extra gratitude, and there will always be customers who understand the benefits to future visits. If I’m a regular, I tip aggressively, as an investment in my longterm happiness.

Unfortunately I believe you are tilting at windmills my friend. Almost impossible to turn a train off a track. The truth, you don’t want to hear is, that by a large majority, all three parties involved in tipping appreciate the benefits it brings them.

The difference in quality of service when everybody is getting their $ regardless if you get the good waiter or the bad waiter, will drive good servers away. You’re wildly underestimating how hot people will be to paying an auto grat on what they perceive to be, poor service. People like being able to punish poor servers. And owners like that poor tips winnow out shitty servers quite successfully and to their benefit. In North American people are in part, paying to be fawned over/doted on, and that takes motivation.

If your servers are keeping your customers happy and served, in a hopping restaurant, they’re making good money and so is the owner. People love to be showy with their money, to over tip smiley uni students who remind them of their own kids. People like over tipping because they did the job while in college and really appreciate how hard that person is working. Guys always overtip on first date, like it’s no big thing. Don’t underestimate how those people paying, are grooving on it. It doesn’t take much cash to feel good overtipping a pizza delivery, people like that feeling. A lot.

In hot bars and restaurants the servers are paying a kickback to the house, 3-5% of sales. In a busy place, that’s a substantial unrecorded cash flow/slush fund. The owners aren’t declaring that income, they won’t be jumping on board ‘no tipping’ any time soon, I suspect.

I wish you good luck in your continued campaign, but I think it’s a fruitless effort as it’s a deeply ingrained culture. Which most people feel pretty good participating in.

Why do you want to stop the rest of us from tipping? Of course waitstaff should get paid a decent amount of money, which would be more than minimum wage, so you don’t have to feel guilty about breaking the social contract, but I don’t understand why you care if I want to tip people anyway.

The vast amount of untaxed money flowing through the tip system (and the bar kickback to owner system) ensure this idea is going nowhere.

This basically happened with food delivery in my lifetime. As a kid and a teenager, pizza delivery generally did not have an extra line-item charge associated with it. You tipped the delivery driver.

But then pretty much everyone started adding a delivery fee. But that fee doesn’t go to the driver, so there’s now a social expectation that you’ll pay an extra $5 for delivery, and then also tip the delivery driver.

The addition of a fee for service did not remove the social obligation to tip for that service.

I’m not sure I buy this explanation. If tipping is so great, why hasn’t it expanded (more) to other professions, or to other countries? I think it has less to do with how effective tipping is and a lot more to do with how stable the economic and cultural equilibrium of tipping is.

Eliminating tipping is a cultural collective action problem. It’s hard to change culture. It’s hard to change behaviors in a multi-party system. There’s a chance to do it with a massive public outreach campaign and/or legislation, but ultimately tipping isn’t really important enough for anyone to get behind all that.

I’ll bet that 150 years ago, lobbying for women’s rights would have seemed like tilting at windmills, or gay rights 60 years ago.

I see your point. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t need or want anyone to fawn over me. “Adequate” service is all I would require. I don’t even consider certain things done by waiters: greeting me with “Good evening, I’m X, I’ll be your server today”, giving me a smile that’s not heartfelt, constantly checking on me, trying to upsell me!!!, to be “excellent service”, but rather needless fluff. As for punishing poor servers, you can also do that by telling them off (if you don’t intend to eat there again, at any rate), threatening to speak to their manager, actually speaking to the manager, or leaving poor reviews. If you really feel up to it, that is.

I didn’t mean to say that I wish no one would ever tip under any circumstances. If you like the advantages you perceive tipping gives you, I don’t wish to forbid you to do so; the problem I have is that those of us who don’t want to participate in it are compelled to do so anyway because otherwise we are resented as cheapskates and are guilted by the argument that due to lower tipped minimum wages, we are cheating tipped employees by doing so. The only thing I am unequivocally against is that expectation; I want a system where no tip will ever be expected, even if the server did an excellent job. Anything more than that is pure YMMV. I did say that I would prefer a situation where tipping is forbidden to one where it is socially expected, but I also said that I wouldn’t forbid the custom by law if a less drastic solution could be found. That said, if I owned a restaurant or any other business in the service industry, it would be strictly non-tipping and I wouldn’t want any customers who would want to undermine my authority as the owner and try to tip anyway.

No, that’s just not true. You are not compelled by anything other than your own mind. You could say women are compelled to get married as the cultural norm. And then they realized, though that is/was true, it was not in any way enforced. (Unlike civil rights or gay marriage! It seems wildly disingenuous to compare a cultural practise with fights against actual oppression.)

When you don’t tip, it costs your server money to serve you since they pay back to the owner based on the sale. But no one will shout at you, call you out, or shun you. If you don’t want to tip, don’t tip.

Earning a living in service off of tips is a numbers game. Mugs too miffed to tip on principal are remarkably thin on the ground you’ll find. No one cares, mate. Servers know there’s a few of you out there. Live your truth, Be happy,! They don’t really care, in the long run because you’re the anomaly. Good servers know to just shrug it off, if it ruins your attitude, your tips will def suffer, it’s never worth it!

You’re just afraid of what the people around you will think. Of you.

That’s NOT the same as being compelled, though.

I don’t think like Mr.Pink.

When you say a “handful”, you mean all jurisdictions in Canada except Quebec, of course.

So you want to use the power of the state to criminalise me from doing something I am okay with, and which benefits the other party, because you don’t like social awkwardness?

“Who do we have today, bailiff?”

“One N. Piper, Your Honour, charged with tipping in the 1st degree.”

[Audible gasps from the audience in the courtroom.]

“Mr Piper, I have to tell you that this is a very serious charge!”

Let’s look at the underlying issue here, why are you bothered by this system. You know that the prices for food served at a restaurant 15-20% higher than they say because of the tipping system, and you actually get to decide on anything from 0% higher on up. So before you complain about getting treated like a cheapskate you had to have a prior problem with this system. Can you explain better what irks you here? Do you resent having to work out that final figure yourself? Do you think you are being cheated somehow?

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: “No one?” I don’t think that’s an accurate statement. Sure it’s unlikely that the server will say anything, but if you’re dining with others they very well might call you out for it. And if it’s a habit, people may want to eat out with you less. Saying no one will judge you for it seems incredibly false.

I’m bothered by this system because of the capriciousness involved in it. The server is hired by the establishment and thus the establishment should pay the server’s full salary, not rely on the generosity of customers to supplement that salary as they feel moved to, siad movement depending sometimes (perhaps even often) on something beyond the server’s control.

Is it really math to figure out a tip? You know going in that you may pay x amount over the bill. It’s not like they spring it on you out of the blue. I think a fifth grader knows what 10% of any given number is. It’s just moving a decimal point, you don’t have to break out your calculator to figure it out. Then double it. Again, something a fifth grader can do in their head. If you can’t double $5.43 in your head, just double $5. Now you have your total price. Adjust up or down as you like. Absolutely no one will care if you tip 18% or 22%.

The first people you have to convince are the waitstaff. I can’t imagine any competent server in even small cities that would take a pay cut to $15 much less go back to $7.50 and wait a few years for wages to go up again.

I agree that servers should make decent pay. But that and tipping are not mutually exclusive.

Area man says:

…then proceeds to describe methodical steps that are definitely math.