So the current “conflict” has a lot of my coworkers talking about war. They think there should be a draft.
This is in IMHO because I want serious discussion*
*If the Russkies/Arabs/Texans/Brown people invade my country I’ll pick up an axe and kill people. But anyone who thinks Iraq is/was a good idea can meet me in the Pit.
I would take up arms if a blatant suspension of democracy took place (elections cancelled indefinitely, military rule, etc.) If we were truly attacked by a foreign nation and there was an actual congressional declaration of war, a draft wouldn’t be a problem. However anyone who thinks the public would support a draft to man a optional foreign adventure is deluded.
I can just hear the protesters’ chant now: “We won’t die for Bush’s lie!”
When the [evil nation] beaches their boat on the shores of the USA, ya, then I’ll grab gun, but this “premptive” shit is bullshit
I think that if weapon nuts with bizarre political and religious views and who were so unskilled with firearms as to be a positive danger to those around them decided to start up private armies,lets call them militias…then I would be very tempted to take up arms myself along with TRAINED ex soldiers and remove the weirdos before they harmed others then themselves.
We would be doing them a mercy really.
Is this just a little anti-gun? :dubious:
Ok, let’s rephrase the question: what would be important enough a cause for you to fight as a soldier in?
The weapons nuts with bizarre political and religious views who are so unskilled with firearms as to be a positive danger to those around them aren’t the problem.
It’s the weapons nuts with bizarre political and religious views who are so skilled with firearms as to pose an actual threat to anyone they declare “The Enemy,” that are the problem.
Besides, you can’t point to one group and say, “You can have TRAINED ex-soldiers, but you guys over there, you can’t”
In just about any segment/slice of society, you’ll find us. But as only about 1-in-10 in our military are actually combat arms, you’re (I’d guess about 90%) much more likely to encounter an ex-military hospital orderly or file clerk than Rambo.
So the weapons nuts with bizarre political and religious views probably have just as many (percentage-wise) TRAINED ex-soldiers as the Armies of Righteousness you envision squashing them.
Relax, drop your idiotic prejudice, and engage that lump between your ears for something other than storing bullshit. Your J. Avergae Gangbanger does more damage with guns than any religious or extremist political group in the USA has.
Besides, speaking as a TRAINED ex-soldier myself, what the fuck makes you think I wanna share my foxhole with YOU? Dig your own, new meat.
Ask me in a week or two…
Some say I have bizarre political views. And I’m already a member of a militia. So you’re saying you would be tempted to take up arms and “remove” me? :dubious: For what reason?
And people think we gun owners are the problem. With over two dozen firearms in my house, I’ve never suggested using them against someone who is not in the act of threatening my family.
To answer the OP, I’d take up arms in defense of the citizens of the United States.
“We can never invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass” Admiral Yamamoto
To answer your points in no particular order IME weapons nuts are not usually very profficient with firearms,they THINK they are just like many men falsely think that they are great lovers.
The men that love to spend hours discussing the merits of, and making comparisons with this that and the other weapons are rarely those who have ever been in or ever will be in a position where they need to fight to stay alive.
The exservice men who fall into this category are usually as you say REMFS who have spent more time polishing a desk or counting blankets then they ever have actually soldiering.
I agree that gang bangers do much more harm then those people playing at soldiers but private armies are potentially dangerous to the public(In fact they could be considered gangs themselves)and go against the principals of democracy rather then reinforcing it.
I.E.We’re happy to be protected by the convential forms of civilisation,police officers,the armed forces,the legal system etc when it suits us,
(Though we may protest loudly and vociferously to protect our image)
in fact the very conventions that permit us to play at soldiers but if you do something that we dont like then we’re going to use the threat of, or the actual use of lethal weapons to intimidate you into backing down to us.
I am not making a blanket condemnation of weapons owners as I do realise that conditions in the U.S. are radically different from Europe as far as crime and policing are concerned.
Finally as to sharing a foxhole with you I assure you that my reluctance to do so is as great as your own.
Tankies can be pretty awesome when operating their tin cans but when when it comes to smallarms and ground tactics well…
Quite honestly the safest place to be when up against a hostile armed Tankie is directly in front of him as he is far more likely to shoot himself in the foot,or his mate, or a passing seagull then he everis likely to shoot you .
That and the fact that tank crew have quite a considerable reputation for the potency of their farts.
So thanks but no thanks.
Sorry about the hijack I’ll just make a quick reply to Crafterman and then I’ll shut the fuck up.
Nothin’ I can think of. Of course, I’d make a shitty soldier. I’m old, I’m out of shape and not interested in getting into shape, and I have issues with authority. If the armed forces needed it badly enough to want me as I am (ie, not going through basic training), I’d be happy to volunteer in a non-combatant role, like health care aide or child care for soldiers’ children, or cooking for a soup kitchen - I’m good at those. But just like not everyone’s cut out to be a teacher, not everyone’s cut out to be a soldier. And I’m not. So I’ll leave it to people who are.
Militias are anti democratic, see my answer to EX Tankie as a defensive force for the U.S. they would be a joke .
Lets say that the cold war had turned hot and that there were WARPACT troops on U.S. soil, five spetnaz could easily wipe out a militia group a hundred strong within two weeks,being honest a fair amount of the militia deaths would be own goals caused by N.D.s,poor fire discipline and frightened poorly trained civilians(For thats what the militias are what ever they think of themselves)causing Blue on Blues.
That said most of them would in fact be killed by the Russians.
If there were say a hundred Russian convential Paras they’d probably wipe out a militia group of three times their number probably within one to three days.
Please dont try comparing militias with Mujahadeen or the like because no way on this earth are the two even remotely similar.
So if the militias dont have the competence to resist any actual military force(And I’m not talking about law enforcement agencies acting under severe restrictions) then who exactly are the militias going to use their deadly force on?
I could say that my Liberationist sentiments grant me licence to use lethal force myself against armed mobs holding extremist views that are a threat to democracy.
And as you are apparently a liberationist yourself you’d have to agree with me.
And now I make the most grovelling apologies to the O.P. and let the thread get back on track.
As to your original question I already have taken up arms for my country so theres your answer.
I’m one of those TRAINED ex=soldiers Lust4Life mentioned. I’m rather competent with weapons. The thing is, I was competent with weapons before I entered the military. After I was discharged, I not only maintained weapons skills, I honed them. The military gave me trigger time on weapons I could not, as a civilian, own. They didn’t teach me much at all when it comes to marksmanship. I was, BTW, a combat engineer which is a combat MOS in the US Army. I don’t see myself sharing my foxhole with Lust4Life, either. He can place his own razor wire and claymores too.
Trained military units do, of course, inflict disproportionately huge casualties on poorly trained or untrained irregulars. The US demonstrated that rather nicely in Somalia during the battle of Mogadishu, for one relatively recent example. Our ol’ pal Lusty, chose his hypothetical examples to have the maximum insult-value to his perception of an American militiaman. Yer stereotypical militia guy purely hates commies and Rooshuns, ya see. FTR, I have a good many relatives and friends who lived in the Soviet Union and served in the Soviet Army. They don’t place Spetznaz on nearly as high a pedestal as does Lusty. They don’t even consider them real soldiers. They regard Spetznaz as more of a SWAT unit for the KGB. They certainly don’t fetishize them the way some do in the West.
Do you know why I avoid my local Spart Bar & Grill? It’s not because of the food, beer, or scenery.
It’s all the 40-something wannabe ex-jock douchebags who prattle on endlessly about sports stats, as they compose their “Fanatasy [Insert Sport Here] Team” and talk about how good they were “back in the day.”
Most of 'em would rip their shoulders to shreds trying to toss a football (American) more than 10 yards, or pull a quad trying to kick a footbal (European).
The difference here, is that I know lots of guys (and some gals, too) who can talk the gun talk, and walk the gun walk. I see them at the range on the weekend, putting boxes of bullets downrange into targets, to some effect. Most are “plinking” with light caliber stuff, as the ammo’s cheaper; a few bring out hand cannons, for that nice bangy/flashy/roaring thrill.
The big mouthed, know nothing “gun nut” you posit certainly exists; they make great joke fodder for the majority of gun owners I know, who are safe, responsible, knowledgeable, accurate shooters.
It is about ‘mind set’ IMO.
Old farts like me have been there, done that and are not good to go ‘a marchin’ anymore. Too old… But…
We still can and do shoot, wanna see, come in our yards and and break into our homes… Threaten my family and I’ll have taken up arms so fast you should have already been shootin…
Now if you want to talk armed forces actually invading the land… Well, ole Yamoto guy had it pegged and it is still like that. Now, if the next administration takes most of our weapons and puts us under the UN Rule and not our own Constitution, then you will see some strange and bad shit going down…
But in general, most people of the world do not understand the county folk in this country. The attacker needs to first convince people that there is no use or that they will be safe if they let the invader take over. Without that, a major population up rising in this country out of fear, or pride or whatever will make occupation a real bitch.
All I need is a creditable threat (IMO) not yours, the media’s or the governments to make me unlimber the weapons.
If called, I would go, even in today’s ARMY they are not stupid enough to put me in the actual fighting infantry, I am way to valuable and effective in other areas… But push come to shove, if I don’t have to run and jump, my target acquisition and effective fire is still pretty good.
And most importantly, as stated at the start of this ramble, I already have and am willing to again fire for effect. Up close and personal. The unwillingness to do this is the biggest detriment to war like effectiveness there is, IMO.
It is all about mind set.
YMMV
Do I have to, like, actually shoot at something or can I work in logistics? I’m good at efficient procedures and Getting Stuff Done, but my hand-eye coordination blows goats worse than a truckful of nitro.
No nursing jobs please. Having tits doesn’t mean I want to do that kind of job, as a matter of fact I’m distincly allergic to it.
I’m afraid I’m the kind of person who’d be more likely to grab the laptop and r… ehr… walk away at moderate speed… than stand and fight. But I do bite, kick and claw when cornered, so I guess I’d have to feel cornered enough.
I’d take up arms if our country was attacked, or if an ally, with whom we had a solid reciprocal defense treaty, was attacked.
But I’ve already taken up arms, as in I’m a military veteran(Army). Probably now I’m too old and out of shape. But I’d do what I could.
If the barbarians were at the gates, I’d take up arms. Since I’m really old with a bad back and no military training, I wouldn’t expect to last very long but I’d try.
Until then, I’d last to ask GusNSpot if he really honestly believes that McCain would take away our guns and put us under UN Rule rather than our own? Or is he conceding that Obama will head the next administration? If so, that is rather like surrendering, don’t you think? Or, if he is surrendering the election to Obama, is he threatening armed insurrection as a result? In that case, why not take up arms now and avoid the stigma of surrendering? The moment the results of the election, if unfavorable to his cause are announced, will the revolution begin? And who the hell cares one way or the other?
If Red Dawn were to happen, yeah, I’m in the woods with certain people I know, as a partisan force. You’ll identify us because we’ll holler “YEEHAW” instead of “Wolverines!”. Hostile foreign troops on U.S. soil, you bet your ass I’ll fight. Otherwise, I’m pretty much a rule of law kinda guy.
The only situation I can imagine taking up arms is if there were a foreign invader on US soil. Then it would be whatever arms I could lay my hands on - guns, baseball bats, butcher knives, 2x4s. Let’s go. Of course, under those circumstances, have pity on the poor invaders. It would make the battle described in Heinlein’s The Moon is a Harsh Mistress look like a hard fought tennis match.
In the case of a war fought outside the boundaries of the US, if I felt it were a justified war (which Iraq is not), then I would do my best to offer support as a civilian. If things were bad enough that I could actually do some good by signing up, I’d do it, but I’d be of much better use typing, filing, sweeping, mopping brows, shoveling poop, or something that doesn’t require a high level of physical fitness.