What would the Confederate States of America be like today?

I’ve seen all sorts of scenarios presented by followers of alternate reality stores, explaining how the southern states could have won the Civil War. That’s all fine and god, but I’ve seen nothing about what a modern Confederate States of America would be like.

I’ve got some thoughts about day-to-day life in the modern Confederacy, but I’d like to hear what the Teeming Masses have to say. Let’s say I’m driving south on I-95, skirting the edge of Washington. I cross the Potomac River, pull into the customs booth, and then continue my southward journey, only in a different country. What would I find?

I don’t know why but I’d bet they’d have been a lot like Mexico is today, or maybe before Fox. Probably we’d have had some foreign version of Jimmy Carter or whatnot to get us to reunify. Not that the north would want them back …

I’m not sure there would be a united entity known as the Confederate States of America. The CSA was, after all, founded on secession, which would make it hard to resist subsequent secessions from the Confederacy if the Texans or the Georgians or the Virginians got upset over something. Nor a USA either–if the South has already seceded, what’s left of the central government can hardly turn around and tell California or New England they can’t secede as well. Furthermore, at the time of the Civil War Canada was still part of the British Empire, Mexico was a monarchical puppet state of the French Empire, Alaska was part of Czarist Russia, and Cuba was Spanish. So, there were plenty of European imperialist powers (none of them, with the partial exception of Britain, democratic, and none of them at all republican) around ready to take advantage of a world in which democracy was discredited, there was no strong independent nation in North America, and the Monroe Doctrine was a dead letter. The Mexican War was quite recent; with French backing, Maximilian’s Empire of Mexico might well seek to regain some of its lost territory from the CSA, the USA, a reborn Republic of Texas, or whoever. Of course either the US or CS might themselves seek new territory, particularly if the South only succeeded in winning its independence after at least some degree of military mobilization if not war. (The ultimate outcome will be influenced by just how the South won–if Lincoln dies in infancy and whoever is elected 16th President just says “don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out” this will lead to a different world than one in which the South wins the Battle of Gettysburg and occupies Washington, D.C.) If there’s been some degree of mobilization or fighting before a Southern negotiated secession or military victory, you could have one or both American republics with large military forces, ready to invade Canada, Cuba, Mexico, etc. Any imperialism by the remnants of the United States would put the American republics on a collision course with one or more European powers, with unpredictable results.

Throw in race–perhaps one or more Haiti-style ex-slave republics in the Deep South (there were large stretches of the Deep South where slaves were a majority of the population, sometimes a substantial majority) fighting with the now-disunited Southern white republics (i.e., the remnants of a state founded for the preservation of white supremacy and the enslavement of blacks), and it isn’t a pretty picture.

By the way, this question was raised before in this forum.

And it looks like I said almost exactly the same thing. Oh well, at least I’m consistent.

Politically, everyone else seems to have this one covered (including in the thread alluded to by MEBuckner) but economically the main thing to remember is that the bulk of the South was what Jane Jacobs once characterized (“Cities and the Wealth of Nations”) as a “supply region”, that is, a place that the rest of the world is interested in for its ability to supply it with one and only one commodity. For large portions this was cotton, for other large portions I think rice was important? (South Carolina? I could be wrong.) Either way, we’re talking the production of unfinished commodities whose price is strictly a function of the demand coming from the industrialized portions of the world, and the supply that these supply regions can produce on that demand. Historically, commodity prices have declined, on average, as substitutes are found or as new sources of supply open up. So the South would have faced a bleak future economically, one that would eventually, I would think, (veering into the political here) mean that some portions of the CSA would have applied for readmittance to the Union, or been forced into it in some later war.
Or, less bleakly, they would free the slaves and pursue an industrial revolution of their own. Not likely, though, given that we already know that it took 100 years after the Civil War for segregation to end.

My thoughts … the CSA in 2001 would resemble South Africa in 2001, except that there’s more white people – probably 50% or 60% of the population.

pantom described the “supply region,” which South Africa still serves as – they export plenty of valuable raw materials, but there’s relatively little “addition of value” to those raw materials while they’re in the country.

Slavery would certainly end, with the rise of industry and increasing pressure from other nations. Still, segregation would be a way of life, at least into the 1980s. Just as South Africa eventually succumbed to an economic boycott, the CSA would likely have experienced the same type of shunning from other nations. After a bit of unrest, there would eventually be equality on paper – but since whites would still be the majority of population, blacks would not have the same political power as in South Africa, or a more liberal North. (Yup, I think the remaining USA would have a more liberal mindset than now, maybe on a par with Canada or Australia.)

Day-to-day life – there would be a large, comfortable white middle class, mostly living in the same sort of urban sprawl that Southern cities are known for today. However, there would be more fear of a poorer black population, so most of the whites would live in airtight gated, guarded communities. The crime rate would probably be much higher than in the USA, especially considering the more dominant culture of “respect” and “honor” in the South. Most blacks would live in segregated townships, although there would be some level of economic integration – if a black citizen becomes successful and “respectable,” they’ll be welcome behind the gates too. Many whites would probably spend their Sundays sitting around the barbecue, retelling stories about co-workers and family members getting carjacked or robbed, and contemplating leaving Dixie behind. A brain drain of educated professionals to the USA, Canada and Australia is a serious threat to the CSA.

Southern cities would be UGLY. Given that Southern cities in OTL tend to have far more lenient zoning and sign regulations than cities in the North, that there’s a more prevalent “my land’s my land, and I should do with it as I please” attitude, and the classic “good ol’ boy network” now, expect CSA cities to have little if any zoning, more billboards to make OTL Tennessee and Georgia Interstates look downright scenic. Southern cities would have even more urban sprawl, even with smaller populations than now. After all, there’d be fewer Yankees heading south for jobs – no rush of Buffalonains into Charlotte, no stream of New Yorkers into Miami.

A CSA Florida would be empty compared to the OTL Florida, without an inmigration of immigrants and Yankees. (Would Cuban refugees stck around Miami, or would they had north?)

Southern media – there would be more censorship, and generally a more conservative attitude to what’s shown on the air. Lots of USA shows, but don’t expecct to see the Seinfeld “contest” episode on the air in Atlanta. After the CSA “opens up,” there would be something of an “awakening.”

…and Pepsi would be the dominant softdrink in the world becaue of the world boycott of Atlanta-based Coca-Cola, Delta would be a small regional airline (which means their hub-and-spoke system of efficient passenger torment may have never caught on), and the spring break exodus of midwestern college kids would be more towards California and Colorado.

I think the big export from SC was hemp, BTW… at least until the hemp farmers moved to KY.

I agree with MEBuckner, though - the resulting republic would have been unstable, and there are simply too many possible outcomes for speculation.

For an interesting take on “The South Wins” I recommend the “Dixie” section in GURPS Alternate Earths, a gaming supplement. The change there is William Walker’s excursion into Nicuragua is success, and Nicuragua is thereafter used as an end-run around the Union blockade. The end result in the 90s is another super-power to rival the US.

But really, as pointed out already, what a contemporary CSA looks like depends on HOW and WHEN the CSA becomes an independant nation. Give us a few scenarios, and we might spin out a logical conclusion.

I wonder if race relations might actually be better in a modern Confederacy than a South that is, in many ways, still occupied and controlled by other parts of the nation. Most of the nations in this hempisphere that abolished slavery on their own in the latter half of the 19th century have better race-relations than the U.S.A., and I think that’s partially because of the way Reconstruction was handled. There is no doubt that Southerners were racist back then (but so was most of the North as well) but the institutional hatred of (as opposed to condescension towards) blacks was largely a reaction to the way the Union tried to force major changes in Southern culture at gunpoint during it’s occupation.

Whether they Confederacy was allowed to secede or if the war went better for their side and the Union decided to just let it go, I don’t think the modern Confederacy would be as powerful as the Union today, but I think they would probably be doing quite a bit better than Mexico economically, maybe have a standard of living like some of the poorer western European nations like Spain. Probably would have began the switch from an agrarian existence towards the beginning of the 20th century.

Integration would have happened earlier, blacks were already the majority of the population in many states and their population would have grown faster, since the migration to northern cities like Chicago would not have happened (early 20th century U.S. would have given preferential treatment to European immigrants). A problem with illegal immigrants, both black and white, might occur, similar to what’s going on with Mexico now, if economic conditions got bad enough in the Confederacy, and it would be harder to control due to lack of language barrier and a heavily populated border. I don’t think the Confederacy would do anything to make this problem worse, so that’s why I’m seeing earlier desegragation and perhaps even tougher anti-hate legislation than we currently have. After a generation there would still be problems, but I see them reaching where we are at now (integration-wise) by 1950 or maybe earlier, depending on how WWII goes (I don’t see the Confederacy allying with the Axis, and the Nazis scared the racism out of a lot of white-folks). That combined with a clear black majority (they are only 13% of the total US population) would lead to a more racially equal society. They definitely would have a black president by now, in fact they might not have had a white one for decades. Hispanics would also be a powerful group, and I think you would also have a much larger mixed-race portion of the population, like Brazil.

I think the Confederacy and the U.S. would be good allies by now, like the U.S. is to Mexico currently. People would care about the Civil War about as much as we care about the Mexican-American War - people would know that the two countries were once one, but nobody would see anything unusual with them being separate by now except for a few fringe radicals, especially considering how different the countries would be - how could anyone imagine the Confederacy and the Union under the same government? There would be minor disputes between the nations, of course - a lot of drugs coming up out of the Confederacy (though considering how the drug abolition movement was largely fueled by racism it might not have happened in this history), illegal immigration, there might be lower case union resentment of Union corporations opening factories south of the border for cheaper labor. It would not be so bad to prevent a thriving tourism industry.

Whites would probably make up no more than 20% of the population by now, divided unevenly throughout the Confederacy - Texas probably would have more like 40 or 50%, while in the southeastern states (except maybe Florida) they might only make up 5%. Unless the Confederacy goes through a socialist phase I imagine a larger proportion of whites will be in economically advantageous situations, but though I see a class system, I don’t think it would be dominated by whites as it is in our reality. Probably still be conspiracy theory nuts who imagine some behind-the-scenes white conspiracy in the Confederacy.

I see a very different world today, but not necessarily a worse one.

I have trouble seeing how the Confederacy could ever have become an industrialized nation. First of all, it only has miniscule deposits of coal and important metals. Of all the attempts to bring industry to the South, the oil business in Texas is pretty much the only success. The South also wouldn’t have as much land to expand into, assuming that the USA kept all western territories. I don’t see any rebellions by any other groups of states; what major issue would exist to divide them?

Would the Confederacy ever be economically strong enough to pursue major projects such as The Manhattan Project, the space program, or an interstate highway system? I doubt it.

For some reason, I thought PepsiCo was based in North Carolina. Am I just ignorant?

That, frankly, is a ridiculous assertion. The southern United States in no way shape or form is controlled or occupied by “other parts of the nation” and certainly has played an outsized spoiler role in national politics in the last 30 years.

This is mere rhetoric.

The nations you refer to, e.g. Brazil, had utterly different social systems which never adopted segregationist credos and always openly accepted race “mixing.” For better or worst the “Latin” approach to race never fell into the same binary thinking which the Anglo world did.

Rubbish.

False: any examination of pre-Civil War history will lead you to stumble upon some histories of the slave revolts, which were all repressed in bloody quasi-genocidal bursts of violence. Fear of blacks, fear of slave revolts and the corresponding logic of racial repression had become fundamental to southern race relations well before the Civil War. Blaming this on Reconstruction is to merely engage in scapegoating. Hatred of blacks was well evident prior (and not solely in the slave statess of course) and dependant on completely different things: rather we have to look at the ideology of racism which had come to dominant in North America.

Rubbish, this analysis depends on the false premise that racial hatred was somehow the product of reconstruction. Given the premise is fallacious and unsupportable, this little scenario can be rejected out of hand, as well as the dependant analysis.

Are you saying that Reconstruction had nothing to do with the post-Civil War violence against blacks?

Nothing, no. Mere additive effect, yes.

It is abundantly clear that the ideology of racial superiority combined with dehumanization, fear of other and tradition of acceptance of violence as part of race relations (i.e. violence towards slaves) all were in place without any regard to Reconstruction.

As such, Southern US society already contained all the ingrediants for the long dark period until the 1960s, including social justification of violent repression of the racial other. (Of course American society in general shared many of these ills so it would be a mistake to lay excessive blame on Southern society) Reconstruction, to the extent one wishes to accept the demonification of the period, is but a blip.

Without Reconstruction you have all the necessary and sufficient factors for the exact same history, if not worse if slave revolts broke out.

Historians have cited the Civil War as the single greatest test of the USA’s cohesion. Up til then, the idea of federalism and “one nation from sea to shining sea” was a grand experiment that nobody was sure would work or not. If the CSA had won the war, the USA itself might have been doomed. Whether it breaks into three or four separate nations or undergoes total Balkanization is anybody’s guess. California would certainly declare its own independence.

Mexico, still angry from the Mexican War, would almost certainly try to take back what used to be theirs. They’d probably strike Texas first. However, Texas (which I’ve always thought of as a separate country anyway) breaks away from the CSA and fights back the invading Mexicans. The rest of the CSA stays together and on good relations with Texas (I’m assuming the split was amicable.) I agree that the CSA would probably remain an agrarian nation. However, industrialization of New England, the Midwest and the mid-Atlantic states would be delayed due to constant skirmishes and battles over territory.

WWI breaks out in Europe. Without the USA to step in and put a stop to it, the war drags on even longer and countless more millions are killed, until a lone soldier stands up and cries, “Can’t we all just get along?” Europe patches things up and negotiates new treaties to prevent such a disaster from happening again. With no Marshall Plan (I hope I got that right) to crush Germany’s spirit, there’s no pissed-off Hitler to rabble people up, and thus no WWII. Europe’s economy booms and the ECC (and eventually the EU) take place decades earlier than planned.

Eventually, things settle down in North America and the various nations define their boundaries and sign treaties with each other. California, due to its isolation, vast natural resources and increased immigration from other battle-torn states, becomes the dominant nation on the continent. Utah would probably have its own theocratic nation, and the central plains (unless they’ve been annexed by one of the other nations) would have far more political influence from the Native Americans and might even remain a nomadic society like Mongolia. Economy in the CSA remains steady as they’re not fighting with everyone else, although they’re limited by their agrarian base and they still have the slavery problem to deal with. (An apartheid-like situation seems unlikely, as the other N.A. countries are less inclined to shove their nose into their affairs since they already know where that went LAST time.) Finally, the nations of N.A. decide to emulate the EU’s success (as the EU emulated the USA in the real world) and federalization starts all over again, uniting all of what used to be the USA, CSA, Canada and Mexico, and eventually culminating in a one-world government.

Or, something completely different would happen.

BTW, the Alvin Maker series by Orson Scott Card takes place in a late 1800’s scenario where the CSA successfully seceded and the remainder of the Union breaks up into separate territories. It’s fantasy-based and deals hardly at all with the politics of the situation, though.

J.E.T.

I’m curious as to why it has been postulated that failing to keep the nation united, that the USA would for some reason split further into smaller nations. First off, if the CSA won then the United States would have a large enemy with a long border who had just humiliated the USA. If anything a common perceived enemy should bring what’s left of the country closer together. Or, failing that, then the government would take a tighter control to ensure no further secessions. Secondly, no other part of the nation has cause to secede like the South did, (with the possible exception of Utah, but I doubt the territory would seriously attempt to break away). There was just no cause for friction between the remaining states. Again, the threat of another large power literally next door might even prove unitive for the remaining USA. And finally, California was NOT isolated. By the time of the Civil War, the USA already owned all of the territory on the continent that we do to day (except for Alaska). We had a civilian and military presence through the entire southwest, so California certainly was not dangling out there on its own. The only territory the might conceivably be given to the CSA would be the Indian Territory (modern day Oklahoma).

One reason why the remainder of the USA would face further secessionist pressure would simply be that the principle of the thing would have been established. Especially if the USA had simply told the South “don’t let the door hit you on the butt on the way out” from the outset, it could hardly then turn around and tell some other region it didn’t have the same right to secede. If the US had fought a big bloody war and lost, that might have established that the US had never really accepted the principle of secession. Still, would the US be ready and willing to fight another war to keep some other region? Given that the principle of secession had already been established, like it or not?

The reason why I think other regions might have actually taken advantage of the newly-established right to secede has as much to do with the external dynamics of the two republics as it does the internal dynamics. New England had threatened to secede at least once or twice before the Civil War; California was geographically contiguous, but demographically isolated, with a lot of mostly empty territory between it and the core of the US. The secessionist pressures on the CSA would be even greater, with Texas one obvious candidate for independence.

But the main reason I imagine various regions actually seceding is because I imagine foreign influence egging them on. You’ve got the British up in Canada, you’ve got the French down in Mexico, and you’ve got the Russians in Alaska and the Spanish in Cuba (not major powers, but available to complicate matters). Lots of imperialist Great and not-so-great Powers around to play the “Great Game” and smooth talk the restless New Englanders into going for it–there was a pro-British streak in New England going back to the War of 1812, after all–or to support Mexico in regaining at least some of its lost territory (the Mexican War had happened less than 20 years ago).

I don’t necessarily know that the US or even the CS would have suffered any further breakup–but they would have been very vulnerable to foreign skullduggery.

JET: The Marshall Plan was the American effort to reconstruct Western Europe after World War II, not something devised to crush Germany after World War I. The Treaty of Versailles is what got the Germans going between the wars.

Nitpick (and hijack):
The Alvin Maker series takes place at the beginning of the 1800s. The divergence point in that series is that the English Restoration never happened. Well, and that magic works.

My take on this : I see the Civil War as the result of a collossal mistake, on the part of Abraham Lincoln. Had he been more adroit, the “Compromise of 1850” would have been extended into 1870. Of course, had the South won the war, the “Old” South would likely have reverted back to a semi-feudal agricultural society. It would probably have close ties to the North, however, and the old slave-based, single-crop economy could not have lasted much later than the 1890’s-the reason?
-the North would slowly but surely have re-enterd the south, if only to invest.
-the collapse of the cotton-based economy would lhave released large numbers of slaves , who would flock to the northern factories, to find work.
We would probably wind up with a union of sorts, but with a VERY weak central government-and most certainly have never become a world power until much later in the 20th century.

Some further thoughts:

In regards to the issue of race relations, I am not sure where this idea that the Civil War and Reconstruction are responsible for the violent nature of race relations in America. As noted previously, anyone examining the history of slave revolts, their violent suppression and the discourse surrounding “uncontrolled blacks” — which is to say the larger racial ideology — can find ample evidence that dehumanization of blacks and fear verging on loathing were already features of a violent system. Neither the Civil War nor Reconstruction created this, and I think it naive to think they even had much influence one way or the other.

In regards to a post-Civil War development of the Confederate States, it strikes me that far too many posters are assuming away a legion of difficulties to arrive at a present only slightly different than our actual present. Of course assumptions are inevitable, but one should start with some rigorous examination of the post-War possibilities.

Most obviously there is the instance of United States - Confederate States relations. They are unlikely to develop chummily. The issue of slavery would continue to irritate:

First, the Abolitionist movement in the North is unlikely to disappear, and depending on the scenarios for the end of the War, might remain politically strong.

Second, the issue of escaped slaves fleeing North and West, already a problem for the South prior to the War is likely to continue and grow worse, above all if we presume the Abolitionists remained strong in the Union. Certainly, the incentives to compromise or respect Southern “property rights” over human beings are largely removed. Slave flight to the Union territories would present not only serious political issues, it would represent a real loss of capital for the South. We may presume a militarized border in the developed East as Southern states attempted to suppress flight with “bleeding Kansas” style guerrilla conflict in the West.

Again, depending on the scenario, the Union is likely to have the military strength to close off western expansion, which will prove problematic for the South. Increased militarization of both states will prove to be a drain, but more so on the South. With economic developments largely running against it, all other things being equal, its long term future as a healthy state looks doubtful. As a corollary, one might suppose — although this is not necessary — that development of the West might move faster as the more powerful Union pushes to lock in those territories and their presumed resources as quickly as possible.

Third, a more militarized North America introduces a very different developmental dynamic, with less surplus being devoted to productive capital investment and more to unproductive — in absolute economic terms — security investments. Continued tensions along the border are likely to fuel conflict, if not open war eventually. One might not be able to rule out Northern support, direct/official or indirect/unofficial for slave revolts with corresponding cycles of violence undermining internal investment in the South. Effects on the North seem less clear than on the South which quite clearly begins in a position of weakness which is unlikely to improve except under the most optimistic assumptions. However, in re the ideological make up of the North, I think it unwise to think in terms of “liberal North” and thinking of the modern North East. For example historically as much progressive — using the term in its historical usage — derived from the Mid West. I don’t believe there is any reason to suppose a Communist influence or success in the North, as a poster in the other thread did. Indigenous American socialism was never Communist and seems to have petered out on its own account without real reference to the South, but I advance this with caution.

Finally in re the question of subsequent secession, especially in the South, I think MEBruckner rightly hit upon the core of the question: once the door is opened to using separation as a means of solving political conflict within a political entity, it becomes easier to do so in the future. The Union is likely to adopt strict measures to suppress this, leading to greater federalization, but this is not a necessary response. His scenario of Northern balkanization under outside influence is also possible and the tensions not to be underestimated. In the South, however, their very political logic will tend towards fragmentation which if not leading to break up of the Confederation (outside pressure may be enough to prevent this) will certainly undermine the effectiveness of the Confederate state and likely lead to quasi-balkanization.

Collounsbury wrote:

You might want to review the history of The People’s Party (commonly known as the “Populists” or the “Populist Movement”), which sprang up among disaffected farmers in the South and Midwest in the 1880’s - 1890’s. While not fully socialist, the party had strong socialist impulses.

For reference, here are the 1892 People’s Party Platform and the 1896 People’s Party Platform.

Some salient quotes from these platforms:[ul][li]1892- The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of those, in turn, despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes–tramps and millionaires.[/li][li]1892- We believe that the power of government–in other words, of the people–should be expanded (as in the case of the postal service) as rapidly and as far as the good sense of an intelligent people and the teachings of experience shall justify, to the end that oppression, injustice, and poverty shall eventually cease in the land. . . .[/li][li]1892- [T]he union of the labor forces of the United States this day consummated shall be permanent and perpetual; may its spirits enter into all hearts for the salvation of the Republic and the uplifting of mankind.[/li][li]1892Wealth belongs to him who creates it, and every dollar taken from industry without equivalent is robbery. “If any will not work, neither shall he eat.” The interests of rural and civil labor are the same; their enemies are identical.[/li][li]1896- We demand a graduated income tax, to the end that aggregated wealth shall bear its just proportion of taxation, and we regard the recent decision of the Supreme Court relative to the income-tax as a misinterpretation of the Constitution and an invasion of the rightful powers of[/li]Congress over the subject of taxation. [The Populists were the first to call for redistribution of wealth through the mechanism of a graduated income tax.]
[li]1896- …the Government should own and operate the railroads in the interest of the people…[/li][li]1896- The telegraph, like the Post Office system, being a necessity for the transmission of news, should be owned and operated by the Government in the interest of the people.[/li][li]1896- In times of great industrial depression, idle labor should be employed on public works as far as[/li]practicable.[/ul]

Not fully socialist, as I said. There is no call for government ownership of the means of production. Nevertheless, there is clearly a socialist impulse at work here. And it was Southern-grown, at least in part.

Collounsbury, I will agree with your assessment that home-grown American socialism was never of the communist variety. True Marxists have always been a vanishingly small fringe element in American society.

I’ll stay out of the primary debate, for now at least. I may hop in later.