Thank you for the correction: I had understood the movement to be largely Mid Western, but clearly that understanding was insufficient.
How is it Lincoln’s fault? The South started seceding before he even took office.
Oversimplify much?
You make it sound as though if the South had successfully seceded the more “enlightened” North would want to have nothing to do with their backwards neighbors. I’d say probably not, though. Political relations between the two would probably be very good and the South would be taking in Northern money…at least for a while.
Your comparison of the CSA to South Africa is about a hundred years too early. Nations with sanctioned racism did not get embargoed in the late 1800’s. I doubt there would be the international pressure you suggest.
And as for this…
How exactly is this really any different from the United States today? I don’t know what wild Utopia you’re living in, but the U.S. I know is still shamefully segregated, full of whites in gated communities who are terrified of black people. Your post makes it sound like you think the North’s victory “cured” the nation of racism. I assume you didn’t mean to make it sound that way, but you did.
It just seems like more excuses to crap on the South to me. Was it really even your intention to have a serious discussion about what the CSA might look like?
MEBuckner: Thanks for the correction. I always mix those up. :rolleyes:
Captain Amazing: Are you sure? I seem to remember the Alvin Maker series being set in the 1880’s or so. I’ll have to dig up my OSC books and check…
J.E.T.
If the Confederacy survived into the early 20th century, I can easily imagine a Russian-style communist revolution, albeit organized along racial lines. The CSA would be a backwards feudal state filled with slaves/serfs. I imagine slavery would be “abolished”, but Jim Crow even worse than in our time line. A slave rebellion, perhaps sparked by USA based provocatuers (I can imagine sealed railroad cars delivering a communist leader across the US to the border…)
A full-fledged civil war within the Confederacy breaks out… The biggest difference between the communist revolutions of other countries is that in the CSA people are color-coded. Genocide on a massive scale seems likely. The CSA collapses, border states beg to be let into the Union to be protected from the white “Whites” and the black “Reds”.
I have no idea what sort of society would be left over after the war…perhaps the US steps in and conquers what is left over, installing a colonial-style rule, or the blacks/reds win and institute a communist dictatorship, with most whites executed, or the whites/whites win but all blacks are essentially re-enslaved or killed.
I see a coarsening of civil society in the North, and a more miliaristic state afterwards, even if they conquer the south. The horrors of the 20th century would occur a generation early…who knows what would happen after that…
You are sadly mistaken. I can speak with authority for Jackson, Mississippi when I say that judicial districts, redistricting and even promotions in Police and Fire departments are all overseen by the Federal Government. Point of Fact, JPD didn’t have promotions for any reason for nearly 10 years because of a government lawsuit. It took some herculean efforts to get that lawsuit over with.
Everything done on the State level is always subject to Federal intervention, more so than the rest of the country, seemingly. Please revise your “Facts”.
First, as a matter of fact, I reject the idea that federal court supervision to guarantee some US citizens rights otherwise not respected by another group of citizens is in any way shape or form “occupation.” Further, the Federal judges responsible for such jurisprudence are not foreigners. Most federal judges are from the districts or at least the region in their competance (being nominated in general by their Senators) and their appointments are subject to the confirmation of the Senate, thus not without consent. That the poster thinks this is “occupation” is both disturbing and disappointing.
Second, the poster extrapolates from the case of Jackson Missippi. While Missippi may bear the unfortunate distinction of having more problems than other places currently, a goodly number of cities in the north, such as Boston, bear the unfortunate distinction of having been under federal supervision in re civil rights. Ergo, we can’t say this was restricted to the South or on the other hand is generalizable to the South. Rather, the issue seems to be some localities in Missippi and their evident problems catching up with the 20th century.
So, I am not revising my facts and I maintain it is in fact absurd and beyond that without rational support to assert that the South is “occupied” by the rest of the nation in any rational sense of the world “occupied”.
I repeat, this kind of claim is mere political rhetoric without any basis in objective, rational analysis.
Exactly. Boston, as recently as the Seventies had a federal judge virtually running the public school system. From what I understand, his authority extended to include determining how many basketballs different schools bought. And while not a foreigner, he lived in the suburbs and sent his daughter to school there, rather than in Boston. Local and state officials were powerless to stop it as the city was engulfed in violence and the middle class left in droves for the suburbs.
So I can sympathize (in a regional sort of way) with the fact that the federal government can act without regard to local concerns with disastrous results. However, even while the National Guard was called in, I would not consider Boston “occupied and controlled by other parts of the country”.
In any case, racism in the south was certainly caused by deeply ingrained beliefs of racial superiority far more than by pique over redistricting and civil service promotions.
**
“Occupation” may be not exactly the right word to use. In any case, this debate is in danger of veering off course from the OP.
Besides, Judges didn’t have any say in the case I mentioned. It was solely the Justice Department.
I dare say that Mississippi isn’t alone in this regard. Racism isn’t limited to Black and White.
Nope…Seventh Son takes place around 1800. Jefferson’s mentioned, and William Blake is a minor character.
Politically, it would have instantly mellowed after the war, and given up slavery soon afterwards, just as the rest of the world did. But it would never recover the trade with Europe. Things like cotton would flow directly to the North.
It would be a modest country that traded mostly with the US.
All the migration would have been northward, out of the area.
One major difference is that they would no longer think the Civil War was worth discussing every day - they wouldn’t “still be fighting it” as they do now.
They would have just turned around and abandoned the “cornerstone” of their new government, the “undeniable truth”, divinely sanctioned by God, which they regarded as “the greatest material interest in the world”? Would you care to elaborate on this line of thought?
Wasn’t Germany about to enter the war on the side of the South toward the end of the war for trade-related reasons?
gggaaaaahhhhhhh!!! I wish people would stop making stupid comments like this!! Southerners do not talk about the Civil War every day! It is not a major topic of conversation all over the South! Of course there are people who still discuss it, but could we please avoid big dumb sweeping generalizations?!?
“Germany” didn’t exist until 1871.
How about “Prussia” then? Or am I still in the wrong area of Europe? My point is that the South would not necessarily have been completely without European trading partners.
In re Missippi:
The Justice Department does not get to simply impose decisions, whatever actions they have taken or are taking were/are subject to judicial review. Whether a Federal Judge is currently supervising the issue directly is outside my knowledge, but is largely irrelevant.
In re occuption, there is no doubt the word is both inaccurate in fact and wrong in spirit. (Aside, I believe I have clearly noted I don’t consider racial issues to be limited to the South)
In re the intervention which Kyomara is referring to, I believe you must be thinking of Great Britian, with a remote possibility of France. These are the only two powers remotely capable of intervening in any meaningful way in the conflict. Prussia did not have a high seas navy. I only recall GB being mentioned in re possible intervention, and overall given anti-slavery sentiment in GB --whatever governmental policy might be-- it was unlikely, as far as I have read.
While we’re on the subject of changes to the USA at the time of the Civil War, anybody have any guesses as to what would have happened if either of these two things occured:
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Booth trips on his way up the stairs, shoots himself instead of Lincoln? (Can take this either way as far as the North winning the war or losing it.)
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North wins the war, and decides that all former slaves need to be shipped back to Africa because of the belief that they won’t fit into American society? (This idea was seriously considered for a time, I think that even Lincoln was a backer of this idea. Don’t know for sure.)
Just to toss a few numbers into this debate:
Nine million people in the CSA nearly 4 million of them were slaves.
Resources of US in 1860:
Confederacy had 30% of the population, 24% of the area, 29% of the railroad track miles, 14% of the factories, 8% of the industrial workers, 28% of the value of farmland, 35% of the value of livestock.
Banking and shipping would have been great problems for the new nation as well.
Jois
All the southerners I’ve ever met brought up the civil war at every gathering. None of the other people ever did. So I’m not generalizing, so much as reporting what my experience has been. That’s what we all do, unless we have studies or something.
I don’t believe there would be one. It would have been just a matter of time until both “countries” were reunited. The advent of the cotton gin and popular opinion meant that slavery was on it’s way out. After all the foundation for the Confederacy was very much like the Federals. I think it would have been like siblings mad at each other…They fight…they pout…they forgive. It would have been just a matter of time before they reunited. After all we are basically the same people.