What's the best way to teach yourself a language?

[MichaelEmouse]

@TokyoBayer

I’ll disagree with the qualifier “extremely” as “ore” would be inappropriate in most formal or even “polite” situations. The impression I have of “extremely formal” would be something like a black tie dinner.

It’s not used in normal business environments, talking to strangers, neighbors who aren’t close friends, doctors, etc.

There isn’t a direct comparison to English, so it’s hard to describe.

Blue collar workers tend to use it more than professionals. Many men never use it, even with other men. I never heard my ex-wife’s father ever use it, despite living with them for a year.

I’d agree that it’s not really offensive like “fuck” is, but still not appropriate.

Depends on the woman. Most women I knew would be turned off. Some women wouldn’t care and one in many tens of thousands would use it herself.

So, it’s like the difference between “Tu” and “Vous” in French but applied to the first person singular?

[Nava]

More like speaking of oneself as “dude”, among other things because nowadays the only ones who insist in vousing everybody are people who know less French than I do.

[TokyoBayer]

@MichaelEmouse

So, it’s like the difference between “Tu” and “Vous” in French but applied to the first person singular?

Sorry. I don’t know French. I know that in German there is a difference in which word for “you” is used, with “sie” as formal and “du” for closer friends. My German friend said that it takes an explicit agreement to use “du” between people so using that inappropriately wouldn’t be cool.

I just asked a female friend and her take is that she would consider the user childish.

[Broomstick]

In French, “vous” is the formal and “tu” is the familar.

[DPRK]

@TokyoBayer

I just asked a female friend and her take is that she would consider the user childish.

Makes sense; according to the data on Wiktionary, with an “unknown visitor” male elementary-school students used “boku” 64% of the time and “ore” 26% of the time, but by the time we get to university it’s 36% “boku”, 29% “jibun”, and 22% “watashi” - ore has dropped off the radar. OTOH, with friends and family the use of “ore” by male students increases from 60-70% to nearly 90% between elementary school and university while “boku” drops in that context.

Clearly this is an aspect of language that cannot be learned straight from a grammar book; the same exact word, “ore”, was not masculine or childish or blue-collar 200 years ago.

[Saint_Cad]

I want to learn Russian and one thing I’ve noticed is there is a dichotomy in what you want to learn. You can use a system that teaches conversational language so you’re in a foreign land and can ask where is the train station, say id like a glass of water, etc. I highly doubt that such a system would let you read a newspaper or hold a complex conversation beyond
My name is Cad
Jf;mdsffviuiernuihfdoijSoijsvlfdkhlhsfeu903mncsdlkhiescm
Umm … I’d like water
Dkjsr9srflknvuhiojXojkrg0imnslkjvsefef
Umm … The wind is in the buffalo

The other side is the syntax and grammar that you would see in a classical foreign language class. I took French for 3 years and with effort can read a little of it and speak hardly at all but it seems to me that that (if you’re not a language knucklehead like me) is what it means to learn a language.

[icon]

@DPRK

Makes sense; according to the data on Wiktionary, with an “unknown visitor” male elementary-school students used “boku” 64% of the time and “ore” 26% of the time, but by the time we get to university it’s 36% “boku”, 29% “jibun”, and 22% “watashi” - ore has dropped off the radar. OTOH, with friends and family the use of “ore” by male students increases from 60-70% to nearly 90% between elementary school and university while “boku” drops in that context.

Clearly this is an aspect of language that cannot be learned straight from a grammar book; the same exact word, “ore”, was not masculine or childish or blue-collar 200 years ago.

One place you will hear ore used quite frequently is in Japanese rap. In regular speech though, you hardly ever use any words to explicitly indicate yourself. Most of the time, it is implied by the rest of the phrase.

Also, when it comes to Japanese things get rather complicated rather quickly as to what words to use with whom to the point that you might not understand waitstaff at a restaurant because they use extremely polite language when talking to customers. This is more than the vous, tu, distinction, as you use a different verb with the same meaning (e.g. Maierimasu vs Ikimasu) depending on who you are talking to (or who is talking to you).

//i\

[icon]

@DPRK

Makes sense; according to the data on Wiktionary, with an “unknown visitor” male elementary-school students used “boku” 64% of the time and “ore” 26% of the time, but by the time we get to university it’s 36% “boku”, 29% “jibun”, and 22% “watashi” - ore has dropped off the radar. OTOH, with friends and family the use of “ore” by male students increases from 60-70% to nearly 90% between elementary school and university while “boku” drops in that context.

Clearly this is an aspect of language that cannot be learned straight from a grammar book; the same exact word, “ore”, was not masculine or childish or blue-collar 200 years ago.

One place you will hear ore used quite frequently is in Japanese rap. In regular speech though, you hardly ever use any words to explicitly indicate yourself. Most of the time, it is implied by the rest of the phrase.

Also, when it comes to Japanese things get rather complicated rather quickly as to what words to use with whom to the point that you might not understand waitstaff at a restaurant because they use extremely polite language when talking to customers. This is more than the vous, tu, distinction, as you use a different verb with the same meaning (e.g. Maierimasu vs Ikimasu) depending on who you are talking to (or who is talking to you).

//i\

[septimus]

I thought of writing a long article on the range of pronouns in Thai, but will content myself with a single example.
ผม /pŏm/ /phom/ (same as the word for ‘headhair’, from which the pronoun may derive) — 1st person pronoun, singular, male
Phom is the standard translation of English ‘I (male)’ given in all textbooks; and should be used by foreigners, who are given wide latitude as long as they avoid vulgar speech.
However, when I was working with a (mostly female) team of Thai computer programmers in Bangkok 30+ years ago, the young man who used Phom as his personal pronoun, had this Thai word taped to his shirt amidst general laughter. The pronoun is overly formal in a friendly setting and made the guy seem too aloof. (ดิฉัน /dichán/, with at least three distinct spellings/pronunciations, is the counterpart textbook word for ‘I (female)’, and is now almost obsolescent.)