It’s not hard to deal with at all. On the other hand, “the choices you make are useless” is an irritating argument, as is “you can’t deal with the truth” and “it’s it ironic that [insert obvious and non-ironic point].” The generalities aren’t helping in my opinion.
I can’t stand proselytizing vegetarians either, whether they’re hypocrites or not, they’re obnoxious. I’m just in it for the not-eating-meat part. And I’ve stated this a number of times on the SDMB. But I’ve yet to see a halfway argument against vegetarianism.
Then don’t eat meat. But there is no need for you or any other vegetarian to be walking around pretending that your choices are the optimal ones for human beings and for the planet.
Piffle. It would be the same story as the farmers. They’d kill the extra 15% to boost prices and lobby (ie bribe) the government to pay them for the loss at the public’s expense. Then when they saw how well it worked (and it would) they’d drastically increase herd size, slaughter an even larger number of cattle, and drive prices through the roof while bewailing their fate in return for billions in subsidies. They aren’t going to shut down farms or shrink their business, that might imply penile inadequacy. The law of supply and demand is only as reliable and logical as the people who make the decisions they claim to be based on it.
There is no moral issue in eating meat (or killing poor defenseless plants for food, if you prefer). The argument might as well be that having an immune system is cruel and murderous to microbes. If you can’t use sunlight to convert raw matter into energy, you’re going to have to murder other things other things and steal theirs or die. The morally absolute decision in an amoral universe is going to amount to suicide as a rule. Frankly, I’ve never seen why it would be more immoral to kill other animals in the same state than plants which enjoy immunity from such hand-dirtying.
Now if it’s a matter of taste, then to each their own.
If you find cattle slaughtering horrible, chances are that you haven’t been raised in a rural area. My late grandmother was a mild-mannered and god-fearing woman. But she would slaughter a hen or a goat without blinking an eye. I guess that if someone preached about the immorality of killing animals, she would think that he’s possesed or something.
Some things that you find “bad” or “immoral” or whatever, might be natural for others. I guess that there are far more vegetarians in the cities rather than rural areas.
Why do we keep talking about other vegetarians? I think it’s really a better discussion if you just deal with what the people you’re talking to have said instead of talking about what people with somewhat similar views might think. That turns into a kind of guilt-by-association thing. Let’s look at the radical statements through the first 25 posts in this thread.
That’s it. So far we have heard nothing from those kinds of vegetarians. So there’s no point in talking to them unless you just want to pit them. You’re making generalizations about vegetarians that don’t apply to the vegetarians you’re conversing with.
Omnivore here, but not of the type who tries to convert vegetarians. Live and let live, I say.
From my own perspective (having grown up on a beef cattle farm) cows live a sort of Logan’s Run lifestyle. They live reasonably happy and carefree lives which are then cut short in young adulthood. There are a lot of pluses to being a beef cow. For most of your life you are grazing contentedly in fields, all the while protected from predators by the farmer. Then at the end of your life you spend some time in a fattening pen, gorging yourself on grain, and then you are killed.
Now if nobody ate beef or wore leather or drank milk, there’s every reason to believe cattle would be extinct, or nearly so. They are ill-equipped to survive in the wild after thousands of years of domestication, even if there were available habitat. So from that perspective, we are keeping cattle going as a species.
So I guess the question is, if I were a cow and could make the choice, would I choose to live a time-limited but reasonably carefree life, or choose never to be born at all?
With pigs and chickens, the issues get a lot fuzzier. I will grant you that hogs and chickens raised for slaughter often endure cramped, unpleasant conditions for much of their lives. I could much more easily understand giving up pork or non-free-range chicken for moral reasons.
catsix, the whole hyprocrisy argument is foolish. Any sensible vegetarian knows they are still causing the death and suffering of animals. They are not eliminating it, but they are reducing their share of that amount. Unless you can prove that a vegetarian causes more harm to a larger number of animals than a meat eater, you are just plain wrong.
(I am sure there are special cases where somebody with a specific type of meat eating lifestyle actually causes less harm than a vegetarian, but in general that would not be the case).
I suspect (looking in catsix’s direction) that this whole line of BS about “hypocricy” is a variation on the “You’re judging meeeeeeee!” phenomenon. Okay, get pissed at those meanies who are (horror of horrors) judging you, but leave the rest of us the hell alone. We don’t eat meat. We don’t bother you. Deal with it. Unless we preach to you, telling you how bad you are, just shut yer yap. When we don’t eat meat, guess what that means? Yeah, that’s right, more for you!
Sheesh, just let it go already. When there’s a thread started by some sanctimonious vegetarian, let loose on them. (But that’s definitely not the case here, is it?) When there’s some radical, condescending statement made by a veggie, let 'em know what a moron they’re being. But in the meantime, direct your offended little “You’re judging me!” psyche somewhere else and let us eat our veggies in peace.
I…really don’t think you should put the slaughter of a cow on the same level as the rape of another human being. The fact that you would do that for the sake of an argument is disturbing to say the least.
Is that your way of saying “I got nothing?” It was a fr’instance, and like the equally egregious example I used, it was only used to demonstrate that the logic you applied doesn’t work - not to show that the two things are equivalent.
They’re not reducing a damn thing. They’re merely distancing themselves from the fact that animals die so that they can keep eating.
I’m so fucking sick and tired of hearing how their lifestyle ‘reduces’ the suffering. It’s just a subtle way of saying ‘and yours increases it, meat eater.’ A really underhanded way to pretend their choices are better than mine.
Well, it’s pretty common. Vegetarians in this thread have said that they are ‘reducing the suffering’ by ‘not killing the animals to eat them’.
Sounds to me like those of us who eat meat are being told we ‘increase suffering’ which is a judgment. You wanna much rabbit food? Fine. But shut up about the damn ‘suffering of animals’ already.
If less animals die, they are reducing the suffering of animals. Deal with it.
That’s like saying you’re sick and tired of people voting Democrat, because it’s an underhanded way of calling Republicans inferior. People make different choices than you, you don’t need to treat it like a personal attack. :rolleyes:
No, it’s a fact. By eating meat, you are causing more animal suffering than you would if you ate organically grown handpicked food. Perhaps some small bugs may die in the process of of harvesting, but I don’t see how you can call vegetarians hypocrites and still keep a straight face.
I’m as carnivorous as anyone else, but I don’t feel like my existence is threatened by vegetarians like you seem to be.
A lot of people make conscious choices to avoid doing something that is a mainstream thing to do. When someone says that they take a bicycle to work to avoid using more gas, I’m not going to get my knickers in a twist and all worked up because I assume that (even though they made absolutely NO judgment on my behavior) that they are “judging me” for using a car. Sheesh.
It’s not all about you, you know. We should all be able to make decisions as to what stands we want to make, what issues we feel are important, without having to worry that the rest of the frickin’ world is going to have their precious feelings hurt because maybe (even though we don’t say anything) we might be judging them for not following in our exact same footsteps.
Oh wait. I give money to a certain charity, because it’s important to me. Does that mean that I can’t mention it, or mention why it’s important to me, lest I offend poor delicate you, because you might assume that I’m judging you because you don’t also give money to that charity?
See, it can be used in a million different ways. And it’s obnoxious. Just let it go already.
And I’m saying that some types of logic DON’T WORK across the board. There are different factors involved when deciding whether to order the T-bone steak or participate in a gang rape.
You’ve missed the point by a wide margin. Nobody said eating a T-bone was equivalent to participating in gang rape.
You said
Clairobscur said
My emphasis. Is this any clearer? The point was that your argument - ‘vegetarianism won’t stop people from eating meat, so why bother?’ - doesn’t make sense.
This by no means is a response to any previous post in this thread. I’m simply stating my personal opinion, being a vegetarian myself.
I’ve been a vegetarian for the majority of my life. I have not once had a craving for meat, or envied those eating it. With respect to all meat eaters, I’m sorry, but I just shudder at the idea of eating the muscle of an animal.
I don’t feel like being a vegetarian is really helping save animals (if it does then happy face ). I just think it feels good to not join in with the majority of the population in consuming those innocent animals when we can be just as or even more healthy by following a vegetarian diet.
Also, It annoys the hell out of me when people ask me “You’re a vegetarian? Then…what do you eat?” (Just something I’m adding.)
The difference between us seems to come at the actual time of the animals’ deaths. You view it as something yet-to-be, and in my mind it is a done deal.
By not eating meat, you are preventing the suffering of an animal at a future date. Where as in my mind, the animal has already been killed, and there it is on the shelf. I can’t give its life back by refusing to buy it. But by doing so I am ensuring that at the very least, I am doing my part to see to it that the animal’s death was not for nothing and that it will serve some purpose, rather than just getting thrown away after the expiration date.
I hope that helped. I really didn’t want this thread to turn into an attack on anyone (which some posters seem to have elevated it to), and for that I appologize.
Well, those aren’t people whose approval I ever sought. My rationale for dragging the “V” word in is that I define “meat” the same way your local grocer does: Beef, pork, lamb, maybe some other exotic mammal like buffalo or goat. Fish and poultry are sold in a different part of the store. The term “Bug-eye Vegetarian” is hardly my invention.
And while it may be important for someone to monopolize the term “vegetarian,” it should be noted that even the strictest vegetarian eats things that aren’t, strictly speaking, vegetables (Salt, for example, or mushrooms). Wave a dictionary in my face at your peril.
But the clincher for me was on the wrapper of some meatless burger I tried for a while (Boca, or some competing brand). They put interesting, thought-provoking proverbs in the wrapper, one of which was “Being a vegetarian 50% of the time is 50% better than never being one.” Or, in the words of a beautiful young lady of my acquaintance, “It’s a preference, not a dogma.” Wotta gal.
I already fully understand your reasoning. It’s nothing that hasn’t occurred to me and probably every other vegetarian. As I’ve already made clear, I didn’t give up meat as some grand form of protest against the injustices of beef and poultry farming. I did it because I couldn’t justify continuing to eat it when I felt it wasn’t something I should be doing, because the “be too hard to give up cheeseburgers” felt shallow and lazy, and because I was worried about mad cow disease.
). I just think it feels good to not join in with the majority of the population in consuming those innocent animals when we can be just as or even more healthy by following a vegetarian diet.