What's the point of living a life free of vices?

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=ITR champion]

Look at it this way. Has any old man, on his deathbed after a prolonged battle with disease, ever looked back over his life any said, “Well, I drank 21,374 beers, smoked crack 138 times, had sex 2,955 times with 28 different women, and lost a total of $37,578.22 at poker. Yes, this was an abundant and fulfilling life. I can die with no regrets.” Do you know anyone who thinks that way?

Thus most folks conclude that “the point” must be something other than hedonism. Many conclude that the point is to love God, which includes serving God, which may include (depending on one’s interpretation of messages and current situation in life) living totally or partially free from certain vices.
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When do things become vices? I’d grant that any activity that becomes dangerous to others or negatively affects the life of others is a vice - but you can condemn them for non-religious reasons. For me, if I had to balance the time I believed in God with sex with my now wife before marriage, I’d take the sex any time. I’m glad I’ve had the experience of drinking good wines. is that a vice? I don’t even regret the three times I’ve been drunk, since that is a good experience to have - just not to repeat that often. A life without any of these - if they appeal to you - would be very limiting.

82

[QUOTE=msmith537]
I didn’t say they were nuts, just boring. Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do?
[/QUOTE]

Leaving aside the list of other group activities that a single person can engage in on a Saturday night, whatever gave you the idea that all people who don’t drink also don’t go to bars or to clubs? Every bar I’ve been to has such non-alcoholic beverages as coke and seltzer.

83

Life’s “pursuit of happiness” can take different paths.

If they wish to go to Bible studies, play Backgammon, take up needlepoint, or whatever, and if they “feel” like they have a happy or fullfilled life, then more power to them.

My mind-reading cap does not function as advertised. I can only speculate. Maybe they feel that their “life focus” should not be inward focused, but “outward” focused (like with charity work).

Maybe they feel that Humans are more than mere animals, and that they (the students) need to strive for a lifestyle that is less focused on meeting “every natural urge”, and more introspective. (Or at least one that takes advantage of our ability to rise above our natural instincts. One that takes advantage of our ability to think in the abstract. And so on.)

Maybe they are worried that if they dabbled in “vice”, that they would be unable to resist excessive overindulgence.

84

and consider, we repress natural urges all the time. The urge to void our bladder, defecate, scratch, have sex, eat, etc. are, with rare exceptions, put off until privacy, convenience or other factors enable us to do so at our choosing.

85

[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Firstly, steady relationships are not a vice,
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean to imply they were. Only that people in steady relationships are less inclined to go clubbing or bar hopping for the purpose of hooking up (or they should be less inclined).

[QUOTE=ITR champion]

It’s entirely possible to form a peer-group around reading, music, movies, video-games, dancing, amateur ceramics, religion, sports, etc… Moreoever, I’d humbly suggest that such peer groups might, on the average, endure longer and prove more satisfying than a group which gathers only to drink beer, for instance. If five people form a band, they’re working together towards a common goal of producing good music; it requires teamwork, dedication, and discipline. On the other hand, if five gather once a week at a bar, there’s no pressure to keep together. The act of drinking beer can be carried out just as easily in isolation.

[/QUOTE]

In my experience the two are not mutually exclusive. My GF is involved in a book club with her gal pals. They get together over some wine and cheese, discuss their book, get a little drunk (and talk about boys while having a pillow fight I imagine). When I used to play hockey, we would frequently get together for beers after the game. Sometimes people just drink together because they enjoy each other’s company. They amuse each other with their jokes or antics or they share stories about work or whatever.

I think you are correct though that if it’s just about a shared vice, that relationship won’t last. I see that with my coworkers. There are some of them I don’t even like all that much but we still drink together socially. But when they leave the company, there would not be much point in continuing the relationship. Drinking and drug use can provide a false sense of community. Probably one of the reasons it’s so popular amoung high schoolers, college students and people in their 20s.

I also think that one of the marks of true adulthood and maturity is that you grow out of relationships that are based only on some shared vice (ie drinking, smoking pot, womanizing) and form more meaningful relationships.
That said, we do give many mixed messages on drug and alchohol use in this country. On the one had, you have your Reffer Madness ultra conservatives who preach total abstinence (not to be confused with crack-head conservatives like Rush Limbagh). On the other hand, you have the popular media portrayal of casual sex, drugs and alchohol with no serious consequences (as seen in shows like Entourage or movies like Dazed and Confused).

86

[QUOTE=Ellis Dee]
.

…said the guy who embraces vice in all forms. Then again, what do you call a lifestyle that embraces vice?

A “lust for life.”
[/QUOTE]

What an amazing coincidence !!! I’m certainly going to have to tell the guys down at the opium den after I’ve finished debauching this weeks quota of virgins that a phrase used by a poster to describe a dissolute person addicted to vice is ALMOST THE SAME AS MY SCREEN NAME !!!
Wow who’d have believed it eh?

It cant be referring to me though as the poster has never met me ,ever! and they misunderstand the meaning of a lust for life.

I have a lust for life ,i crave new experiences ,meeting new people ,learning new things ,travelling to new places and Ihope I will to the day I die.

I have looked death in the face several times (without meaning to sound melodramatic) which makes me want to live life to the full,this isn’t a rehearsal.

If there is a god then refusing his /her/its gift of life and all of its experiences by hiding away and rationalising your timidity as "serving god " and somehow living a holier life then others smacks of a childs arrogance in refusing to play with the gift its parents have given it TO ENJOY .

I’m no saint nor wish to be one ,I enjoy having a beer ;but then Jesus drank wine .
Are you somehow better then Jesus cos you dont drink?Or are you afflicted with alcoholism in that if you have one drink you will be unable to stop until you’re in a drunken coma .

And I love sex and make no apologies about that either ,the idea of "saving"yourself until marriage seems to be like not doing any jogging ever and then turning up at the Olympic 400 metres final.

I cant see how being sexually inept is doing your new spouse a favour ,and if you’re both as ignorant as children about marital relations then I forsee a long and rocky road ahead for your marriage.

Personally I dont ,smoke ,gamble or inject heroin but if others choose to do so,and they dont harm other people in their pursuit of it then its up to them .

There is a term for wasting your life by being too scared to go out there and experience it and then hypocritically defaming others who do ,its called Ellis Deeing your life down the toilet .

Of course this has nothing at all to do with the previous posters name or attitude ,it is just another uncanny coincidence of words incredibly like the earlier coincidence of words .

Spooky eh?I just felt a cold shiver go down my spine! :wink:

87

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
What an amazing coincidence !!! I’m certainly going to have to tell the guys down at the opium den after I’ve finished debauching this weeks quota of virgins that a phrase used by a poster to describe a dissolute person addicted to vice is ALMOST THE SAME AS MY SCREEN NAME !!!
Wow who’d have believed it eh?

It cant be referring to me though as the poster has never met me ,ever! and they misunderstand the meaning of a lust for life.

I have a lust for life ,i crave new experiences ,meeting new people ,learning new things ,travelling to new places and Ihope I will to the day I die.

:slight_smile: Personally I dont ,smoke ,gamble or inject heroin but if others choose to do so,and they dont harm other people in their pursuit of it then its up to them .

There is a term for wasting your life by being too scared to go out there and experience it and then hypocritically defaming others who do ,its called Ellis Deeing your life down the toilet .

Of course this has nothing at all to do with the previous posters name or attitude ,it is just another uncanny coincidence of words incredibly like the earlier coincidence of words .

Spooky eh?I just felt a cold shiver go down my spine! :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Er Icharged off like a bull at a gate on that one Ellis Dee most certainly hasn’t wasted his/her life hiding under a blanket and I apologise,but thenagain neither do Ispend my entire life devoted to the pursuit of vice ,for one thing Iwouldn’t have the energy to get up in the morning. :slight_smile:

88

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
There is a term for wasting your life by being too scared to go out there and experience it and then hypocritically defaming others who do ,its called Ellis Deeing your life down the toilet .
[/QUOTE]
Take your personal insults to the pit. The clue that I wasn’t refering to you specifically is that I didn’t use any pathetic leetspeak in the phrase, unlike your name.

89

Lust4Life, all I can say is that having picked a fairly common expression for a username, you’re going to have to lighten up when people use that common expression in their posts. If that comment bothers you so much, I’m really surprised you have not been stressed out in previous threads, already.

While your reaction was a bit over the top, your direct attack on Ellis Dee was completely out of line. Not only unnecessary, but in violation of the rules. Do not do this again.

Ellis Dee, given that there was already something resembling an apology posted over twelve hours prior to your response, you really had no cause to go mocking Lust4Life’s username.

If you two have a history of which I am unaware, understand that you are not to bring it into GD. If you’ve just been enjoying too much holiday cheer, start having someone read your posts before you hit enter when you are angry.

[ /Moderating ]

90

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Lust4Life, all I can say is that having picked a fairly common expression for a username, you’re going to have to lighten up when people use that common expression in their posts. If that comment bothers you so much, I’m really surprised you have not been stressed out in previous threads, already.

While your reaction was a bit over the top, your direct attack on Ellis Dee was completely out of line. Not only unnecessary, but in violation of the rules. Do not do this again.

Ellis Dee, given that there was already something resembling an apology posted over twelve hours prior to your response, you really had no cause to go mocking Lust4Life’s username.

If you two have a history of which I am unaware, understand that you are not to bring it into GD. If you’ve just been enjoying too much holiday cheer, start having someone read your posts before you hit enter when you are angry.

[ /Moderating ]
[/QUOTE]

Once again my apologies,I “got hold of the wrong end of the stick” and was far too quick on the draw which I realised literally moments after I hit post.I hope that there will be no enduring ill will between Ellis and myself ,for my part I feel none and wish you Ellis a very Happy and prosperous new year :slight_smile:

91

That’s exactly the mantra of DARE. Anyone who doesn’t want to be a lifetime teetoatler has a drinking problem. I’m unwilling to give up drinking for the rest of my life, and I sure as hell don’t want to be going to alcohol free parties, because quite frankly I’ve been to them and they aren’t as much fun.

I couldn’t ever marry someone that I’d never had sex with. I need to know what I’m getting before I finalize the deal. I don’t buy a car without a test drive, or sign a lease without a thorough walk through. I’m not going to marry a guy unless I know what he’s like in bed. It’s too important a part of a long term relationship to leave it to chance.

So fundamental that even people who actively do not want offspring are still driven to have lots of sex.

Mine was fun and enjoyable, but not ‘magical’ or ‘special’ and that is probably due to the fact that I didn’t expect it to be ‘magical’ or ‘special’. I didn’t have that entire fantasy of perfection built up in my head.

For some of us, such a distinction does not exist. Sometimes you can love someone, and sex with them is still pretty bad.

Not everyone has the whole sex-love thing going on. I never did. Then again, I never bought into the romance-novel way of living that girls are supposed to.

I think if I met a guy now, my age, who was a virgin and didn’t drink at all ever, I would never consider dating him at all and certainly would never sleep with him. Those two statements tell me ‘run. run like hell away from him.’

92

[QUOTE=catsix]
That’s exactly the mantra of DARE. Anyone who doesn’t want to be a lifetime teetoatler has a drinking problem. I’m unwilling to give up drinking for the rest of my life, and I sure as hell don’t want to be going to alcohol free parties, because quite frankly I’ve been to them and they aren’t as much fun.
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That’s not what was said.

is not the same as saying that anyone who drinks at all has a drinking problem. I drink once in a while, but I’m still capable of having fun without drinking- even while many of the people I’m with are drinking. I don’t go to alcohol-free parties, bowling alleys, professional baseball games, bars, restaurants, etc.. Most, if not all of the people I’m with are drinking. I’m usually not. The fun doesn’t magically get sucked out just because I’m not drinking, and when my normally-drinking companions can’t drink (which sometimes happens due to medical issues), they don’t complain that the enjoyment is gone because they can’t drink. There are all sorts of activities which people enjoy without drinking- I’ve never seen anyone actually drinking while skiing or snowboarding or horseback riding or shopping.

I smoke, and I would prefer to go places where smoking is permitted. My smoking is a problem, and still I can enjoy myself in places and situations where smoking is not permitted. If a person really cannot imagine having fun without booze, it seems to me that person has defined “fun” as drinking.

93

[QUOTE=catsix]
That’s exactly the mantra of DARE. Anyone who doesn’t want to be a lifetime teetoatler has a drinking problem. I’m unwilling to give up drinking for the rest of my life, and I sure as hell don’t want to be going to alcohol free parties, because quite frankly I’ve been to them and they aren’t as much fun.

[/QUOTE]

sigh

No, that’s not what I said. I don’t think that liking to drink is a problem. I said, if you think that NOT DRINKING cannot possibly be any fun whatsoever, and that people who claim that they can have fun without it are lying, or just a bunch of wimps and prudes, then maybe you have a problem. Not a DRINKING problem, perhaps, but just a rather narrow-minded view of what fun is. Or lack of imagination.

If you don’t want to give up drinking-that’s fine. That doesn’t mean you’re an alcoholic. HOWEVER, there are people out there who don’t drink, either by choice, or because of health problems, or because they DO have a drinking problem, and that doesn’t make them boring, or no fun, either. Just as you don’t appreciate being told that any drinking at all is evil, some of us don’t like to be told that not drinking makes us boring.

(BTW, I never did the DARE program, so I know jackshit about it. I do, however, have several alcoholics in my family, on BOTH sides, so I HAVE seen the downside of it. And obviously, these people HAVE been forced, by necessity, to live a life without drinking.)

Some people have to give up booze-they don’t have a choice. Does that mean they’re doomed to a life without fun, or amusement? If THAT is what you think, you might want to examine your priorities, that’s all. Not that you have a drinking problem, but that you might want to expand your horizens, use your imagination.

Obviously this is what works FOR YOU. And that’s fine. But what works FOR YOU might not work FOR ME, or anyone else, for that matter. Everyone is different.

All right? You don’t have to be so defensive-I’m not attacking you.

94

[QUOTE=doreen]
There are all sorts of activities which people enjoy without drinking- I’ve never seen anyone actually drinking while skiing or snowboarding or horseback riding or shopping.

[/QUOTE]

Well not while on the slopes. But when my friends and I used to do ski houses, we would always hit the clubs and bars afterwards. Places like Killington, VT and Hunter Mountain, NY have a big after-skiing party scene.
I have mixed thoughts on the whole subject. When you’re in high school or college or even in your 20s, the whole party scene is a big part of many people’s lives. Everyone getting together at someone’s house or a bar or club or driving around with your friends looking for a party is fun. People getting drunk and hooking up and all that. When you get older, however, you don’t want to be the old guy at the bar still “living the dream” or some perpetually single bar-fly complaining how she can’t “meet anyone nice” because the only place she meets guys is at O’Houlihan’s.

95

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Ah, and here we have one of the dangers of vices: they can, if you’re not careful, turn you into someone who can’t come up with anything to do without them.
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Thanks Thudlow Boink - you’ve well and truly hit the proverbial nail with the proverbial hammer. If I had a pound for every time someone said to me something along the lines of “yeah, the bar/pub/club/gig/rave/party/function/date was shit, but I just got drunk/high/off my tits/laid so everything was fine” I could give up working and have the time to write a good book outlining why this way of living is so destructive to the soul and usually pursued by people who haven’t worked out how to stop, or do anything different. Ever seen 28 Days with Sandra Bullock? Poor girl was so freaked by having to be sober and without pain killers for longer than a few hours in rehab that ended up falling out of a tree trying to get hold of some pills she’d earlier thrown outside to prove she could live without them. Great film, I recommend it.

On paper I’m a puritan - I don’t drink alcohol (never have, never been drunk and I’m 27 - which in Britain is like saying I don’t breathe oxygen), don’t do narcotics, don’t smoke, don’t drink coffee, don’t eat a lot of red meat, don’t gamble, hardly ever go to pubs or bars, I recycle, exercise nearly every day, watch what I eat, drink lots of water and try not to eat fatty snacks like crips of chocolate… the list goes on. I’ve yet to meet a single person who could describe my life as boring.

I have, however, met a lot of people in the alcohol-heavy culture that is London who experience total logic failure when I tell them I don’t, and never have (and never intend to) drink. You can see them struggling and then they often ask “But, how do you go to pubs then? I mean, what do you do in them?”. Saying “I don’t” is enough to make some people shun me as a complete alien - the universe I inhabit is not one they can comprehend. Yet these same “individuals” don’t seem to have interests beyond getting shit faced every Friday night through to Sunday morning, watching crap TV and reading celebrity gossip magazines.

I don’t abstain for moral reasons, they’re all logical “it doesn’t work for me” reasons. On the flip side I have a very active sex life, have had (roughly) over 150 sexual partners, go to fetish clubs where sex is the main beverage of choice for everyone present and am probably one of the most sexually liberated people I know. I don’t feel that this is in any way negative or destructive because I’m not doing it to “feel the buzz”, feel better about myself or make up for something that’s missing - I’m doing it for fun because I want to.

So in the final analysis if you put my life on the scales I probably have a pretty vice-free readout as all the sex is counterbalanced with everything else I don’t do. I don’t think this makes me an inherently better person than anyone else, but I am clear that I’m happier in my life than a lot of people that I know who are walking the path of blind consumerist conformity and don’t know why they’re not fulfilled.

Saying that I’m also a little fuzzy on the straight edge movement as it appears to be a form of rigid conformity within a philosophy of the complete rejection of conformity (“I’m an individual, I don’t do what no mo fo tells me to, so I’m not going to have sex or drink. Ever. No matter how much I may want to.”).

96

Someone said we should not go into the semantics of “vices” but in reality it is kind of inevitable. If “vice” were merely conduct, licit or illicit, that is potentially harmful IF done too intensely or persisted upon for too long, you’d have a different situation than if “vice” is to apply only to such conduct as IS being acutely or chronically self-destructive (physically or animically). The wisdom of abstaining from the latter I should hope is a no-brainer: less self-destructive behavior = more quality of life.

OTOH, labeling of former (merely having potential for abuse) as “vice” right off the bat, does confuse an outside observer. In the example provided in the OP, it’s evident that these religious groups feel that giving any leeway to any degree of “sin” against the precepts of the denomination is too much of a slippery slope in the direction of debauchery. Which considering that this religion states right off the bat that everyone is a sinner, would seem to create a paradox of expectations.

The young people in question could just as well attend State U. and join the Christian Student Fellowship while in the middle of a more “normal” social environment, and still seek to abstain from those conducts.

On the Third Hand, though, for those who do not subscribe to such an absolutist POV, and for whom the behaviors alluded, when done lawfully and in moderation, are **not ** “vices” at all but just obe more thing they could take or leave, and they chose to leave for whatever their reason, there arises the parallel debate that we see in threads like these: If someone can take it or leave it, does it say something about their character one way or another if they DO take it or DO leave it? Is even the fact that they say they can “take it or leave it” something to be impeached? IMO, I see no reason why I’d want to do so; as mentioned earlier upthread, a teetotaling celibate person could engage in a lot of fulfilling, fun social activities and I’d find no fault with such a person, nor would I consider it aberrantly abnormal that they can “take it or leave it”.

Oh, and just because in OUR experience we had some Good Times doing the partying scene, with some part or all of the the sex/drugs/alcohol/lame music/stupid fashion package included, at some point in life before “settling down”, does not mean we’re qualified to say there must be something “wrong” with those who did not.

97

[QUOTE=JRDelirious]
Someone said we should not go into the semantics of “vices” but in reality it is kind of inevitable. If “vice” were merely conduct, licit or illicit, that is potentially harmful IF done too intensely or persisted upon for too long, you’d have a different situation than if “vice” is to apply only to such conduct as IS being acutely or chronically self-destructive (physically or animically). The wisdom of abstaining from the latter I should hope is a no-brainer: less self-destructive behavior = more quality of life.
[/QUOTE]

Quite. Otherwise you could argue that eating peanut butter is a vice because some loon once ate the stuff by the bucket until he died of heart failure, or somesuch. I’m also glad you made the distinction between vice and sin, which aren’t always the same. In Judaism it’s considered a “sin” (not the right word but bear with me) for a man to touch a woman whilst she’s menstruating. I don’t think many people would class women touching people whilst menstruating a vice, though. A sin is an act in defiance of religious commandment (specifically Christian), a vice is something that is considered wrong regardles of religion, although the two often overlap (especially in the west where our morality is heavily rooted in Christian doctrine).

98

[QUOTE=RickJay]
I think she was probably crying in frustration because she isn’t getting the raunchy plowings that college students require on a regular basis.
[/QUOTE]

Naw, more likely it was because she was giving a whole lot better than she was getting. :dubious:

99

[QUOTE=catsix]
…I couldn’t ever marry someone that I’d never had sex with. I need to know what I’m getting before I finalize the deal. I don’t buy a car without a test drive, or sign a lease without a thorough walk through. I’m not going to marry a guy unless I know what he’s like in bed. It’s too important a part of a long term relationship to leave it to chance…
[/QUOTE]

Agree to disagree.

I found that, awkward as it may have been. Having our first time being our honeymoon was so special that it makes all the previous first times pale in comparison.

Personally a deal breaker for me would be someone not liking anchovies, The Kingston Trio or Star Trek.

100

In our fairly relaxed approach to sex in western society we have, to a degree, forgotten that sex that comes as the culminations of months of abstinence as your intmacy within a relationship grows is nearly always far more fulfilling than casual sex. The quality of the physical process could be terrible but the meaning of it as an expression of love would more than make up for this.

I’m not advocating mass abstinence to make sex more special, I’m just pointing out that sex with and without love is a very different experience (and the first time between two people who really love each other is markedly different to sex between people having a one night stand, whether or not a relationship follows on).

I can completely understand Bmalion’s wish to wait until after marriage to have sex, even though it’s something I would never ever contemplate doing myself.