What's the point of living a life free of vices?

Great Debates
101

Can we please dispense with this strawman? Or, at least, clarify?

I have spent a lot of time with a lot of people who really really like booze and/or drugs and/or sex and/or what have you. None of them have ever claimed that they can’t have fun without their chosen intoxicant(s).

In fact, of all the presumably much more moderate SDMB-ers here, many of whom also likely indulge in a favourite vice more often than the norm, I have never heard any of them claim that they can’t have fun without vices.

I have heard folks say they can’t imagine a whole lifetime without their chosen vices being fun. Could it be that some folks interpret this sentiment to mean the equivalent of “I can’t have fun without my vices”? Because I certainly don’t.

For those of you who say you have never needed those intoxicants to have fun, or have never enjoyed bar-hopping or clubbing, may I just say: there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

For instance, I have never needed intoxicants to have fun. I have plenty of fun without them. But I also have fun WITH them. Also, I have never enjoyed bar-hopping or clubbing. Once I widened my experience a little I realized it wasn’t that I hate dancing at loud places, but that I hate the music and the people that I always encountered in bars and clubs. Now that I go to private(r) parties, I enjoy them hugely.

I look at it this way. When I graduated from university I went travelling. That was basically two years of a mind-boggling diversity of vices, and I loved every single second. When I look back on those two years (which actually represent quite a high opportunity cost in terms of my career development) I absolutely and positively say “Yes, that was an abundant and fulfilling life.” I developed strong lifetime relationships with amazing people, I learned a tremendous amount about all kinds of things (including a much more nuanced understanding of myself), I had more fun than people who “don’t need vices to have fun” could possibly understand (by definition!), and I never would have done any of that if I had not indulged in the vices I did.

When I meet people who are my age and who “don’t need alcohol to have fun,” and then I hear a bit more about their lives, nine times out of ten I think “crikey, I am SO GLAD I’m not you, my twenties were far, far rewarding than that.”

(On preview, I would not say that about Illuminatiprimus - but I will note to him that (a) I don’t think we can pick and choose the vices we like and think they’re not vices, or that they cancel out, and (b) you seem to have redefined “vices” to “walking the path of blind consumerist conformity” - a sentiment that I utterly agree with, but it’s not the same argument any more. You can moderately engage in quite a lot of vices without walking that path, and in fact, since many vices are illegal (and therefore invisible to the consumerist economy) they are quite the opposite.)

102

I accept that maybe I’m using the term vice slightly inaccurately, I think it would be more accurate to say that I define the root of most vices as “walking the path of blind consumerist conformity”, as opposed to being able to think for yourself whether getting blotto really is all it’s cracked up to be (whether it is or not depends on you, not the alcohol). If I end up joining the Church of Satan it will also be something I consider the root of sin too (I’m actually serious, these guys have some interesting ideas in their philosophical system, dressed up in pseduo-occultism though it may be).

On that basis I think I disagree with you that you can’t pick what is and isn’t considered vice - what is a vice or sin depends on which belief system you’re following. Personally I don’t believe that having lots of fun gay sex with people who are enjoying doing it with me by choice is particularly a vice because it happens to be in an environment (i.e. a fetish club) where it happens to technically break our antiquated public sex laws - no-one is being hurt in the process, and lots of people are having fun (which sounds pretty good to me).

And a quick thanks for not lumping me in with the other tee-totalers as even I agree that they’re largely a dull lot.

103

So, you don’t want to see the slides of my bottle cap collection?

104

No no, I’d love to. Let me just, um, go to the toilet first.

Illuminatiprimus walks quickly to the bathroom, jumps out of the window and runs the hell away as fast as he can

:stuck_out_tongue:

105

Wait! Come back…

…I was going to make espresso.

106

Drugs/gambling/pre-marital sex are like Dungeons & Dragons to me. If there’s a group of people partaking in it the next apartment over, that’s fine for them, but really not my thing. Football, neither. I’ve never been able to grasp the appeal, even sampling them in mild doses as I try to understand why so many have such devotion to each of the aforementioned things. I just wish they’d have some consideration and stop making noise during it. That goes for sex, watching football on TV, drinking/drugs at a party, and celebrating a battle won in Dungeons & Dragons. Do what you will, but don’t bother your neighbor with it.

As far as drinking/drugs/partying, no thanks. I’ve been in places where someone gets drunk and does something ridiculous like diving off the porch into the bushes, and usually such a “life of the party” annoys me to the point of going home and flipping through the channels until I find the least boring infomercial. Of course, people who have a need to be the center of attention even without drinking often bore me to that point, they just come out more frequently when drinking/drugs are involved.

I have friends who frequently invite me to join them at the local casino. I compare that to the old arcade games and pinball machines. At least you have the guarantee that you get to play a game for a few minutes after your money disappears.

As far as sex, I love the security from STDs that abstinence provides and the fact that waiting for marriage means that there are no jealousy or comparison issues once that vow has been made. I believe the cure for all STDs is to let them die off in a single generation, but that will never happen. Besides, on the wacky planet I live on, it’s considered romantic to wait, as a sign of patience. I know that probably makes me seem psychotic to everyone who isn’t me, and I expect pitchforks and torches at my door any minute, but that’s how I see it. But we can agree that I am the only person who exists, or ever has existed, who sees it this way, so let’s just agree on that and save the torches for another time. Enjoy your hobbies, and let live. Maybe some day you’ll even become the equivalent of a Dungeonmaster in it.

107

Charger - I agree with a lot of your sentiments, especially the bit about what the (alleged) life and soul of the party really looks like. By the time people are doing that it’s way past the point I’ve usually left, as I tend to get bored when people cease to be able to have cogent conversation (hey, I can get all of that I want for free on the SDMB :smiley: ).

I’m not sure I agree with your take on (correct me if I’m wrong) being a virgin until marriage. Not sleeping with someone before marriage so that doing it actually means something I can comprehend, not doing it at all until you’re married I can’t - it’s just repression (and yes STDs are a real issue for our generation but a condom solves that - really). Or have I taken what you’ve said too far?

108

Returns sheepishly now feeling bad at having hurt BMalion’s feelings

Okay, make it a hot chocolate and I’m in. Shall we start with the non-American beer caps and work from there?

109

A part of the issue is, “What’s a vice?” And that’s not a smart-ass rhetorical question.

People tend to identify particular things as vices. But by my definition, a vice is a self-destructive habit arising in the perversion of a good or morally neutral thing.

Sex is a good thing. It’s fun, it’s rewarding emotionally, it has a number of beneficial effects. And, out of the right contexts (what are they? another debate entirely), some bad effects. Are there people preoccupied by sex? Of course. Is there such a thing as a sex addict? Certainly. Does that make sex evil? Bullshit! (Allow me to offer the following short definition of “right context”: Between consenting individuals of adequate maturity for the act(s) contemplated, without any coercion or misrepresentation on the part of either/any partner, and in accord with the ethical principles of those involved. You may want it tighter than that for yourself, and that’s fine, but that gives a good loose “socially acceptable” definition.)

Alcohol? People becoming alcoholics is a bad thing. Getting drunk repetitively? Not good. A glass of wine or beer, or two or three, to relax and enliven a social gathering? That’s not vice – unless you’re tempting a “recovering alcoholic” with it. I’d even understand a one-shot drunk after a traumatic experience.

Marijuana? I cannot use the stuff – both my wife and I are part of that small minority that has a paranoid reaction. But I understand that, when not viewed as a rebellious act and a gateway to other drugs, it’s a good relaxant and euphoriant, and an enhancement to creativity. Can it be used as an escape from an oppressive reality, and become actively harmful to the user in consequence? Of course. But is that always the case? Of course not. And let’s not forget its analgesic effects – people with terminal illnesses who would otherwise have to either endure excruciating pain constantly or else be stupefied by narcotics can function fairly normally, if a trifle stonedly, with its use.

The same might apply to nearly every vice. In every case, the moralists wish to ban some substance or activity because of its misuse, but that substance or activity also has a valid use or uses.

I’m dead set opposed to vice. But I don’t mistake the congeries of self-destrictive vicious habits for the things which they entail the use of, which may well be used in non-vice circumstances as well.

110

You are certainly not the only person who sees it this way…I agree with you on all points above.

I love your comment about STDs…you can’t imagine how many women I know who contracted HPV at a young age…one of them was diagnosed with cervical cancer years ago, and the others are all terrified that they will be. Believe me, the peace of mind I have always had in regards to unwanted pregnancy & STDs is more than worth the difficulty of being abstinent.

111

Well, I think most people tend to get tired of someone who contstantly needs to be the center of attention. On the other hand, what you describe sounds like an inability to connect with people at a party. Obviously I don’t know anything about you, but one thing that I’ve noticed is that people who are very introverted or shy tend to get very uncomfortible in such settings. It’s kind of like the more loud and fun the people are, the more uncomfortible they feel because they aren’t a part of it.

112

A sheep? paging Hal Briston

It’s not really a strawman. The OP of this thread himself asked:

He seems stumped by the concept of fun without alcohol.

Many, but not all.

I think it’s very easy to assume that because you see thousands of young people out partying, that there aren’t thousands of other young people having just as good a time as you are, and maybe they’re not drinking at the same time.

I certainly have my share of alcohol, but two of the best evenings I’ve had this fall winter were: a gingerbread designing/baking/decorating party at my apartment with about 10 friends (there was eggnog with some alcohol in it; you would have thrown up from too much nog long before you had enough to get drunk), and a movie night (watched Six String Samurai) preceeded by a roommate and I cooking dinner for the five or so other friends who were over. I don’t think there was any alcohol involved in that night at all.

I’ve also got some great memories of some evenings where alcohol played a very significant role.

The point is, there are many ways to have fun. Many of them don’t require alcohol, and some, in fact, would only marginally be improved, or even hampered by the addition of alcohol.

Just because people who aren’t drinking aren’t having fun with you doesn’t mean they’re not having a great time without you doing something else.

113

I think we live on the same planet, howdy neighbor.

114

Anyone else notice that in this thread, it’s the “closed-minded vice-avoiders” that have to defend themselves against the “open-minded”, with such charges as the below? This represents, of course, a small minority of those people; however, it should certainly do away with the “Believes in morals = narrow-minded” meme.

115

It goes both ways. The “closed-minded vice-avoiders” paint something of a picture of the rest of us as STD-ridden alcoholics who spend our nights trashed and are destined to die of kidney failure, alone and miserable. I said what I did about being happy with my life in direct response to someone who said “Who would ever looked back on a life of debauchery as something positive?” I was trying to demonstrate that some people do.

I would never say “Has anyone ever been on their deathbed and looked back with pride and achievement at all the time they spent on online gaming?” because I know that, even though it’s not my thing, some people really like online gaming and spend a lot of time on that. I would never suggest that that pasttime is a waste of a life, and when someone suggests that my pasttimes = wasted life, for me to point out otherwise is not for me to put them on the defensive.

116

You know, there is some middle ground between 40-Year Old Virgin and Van Wilder. I don’t think everyone should be some drunken frat-guy but there is something not normal about having no interest in social gatherings and abstaining from sex because of STD phobias. I can’t imagine that someone would find it fullfilling sitting along in their appartment watching informercials every weekend.

Yes, I do know how to have fun without drinking. Everyone who drinks is not a raging alchoholic. Enjoying drinking does not preclude one from enjoying all the various other non-drinking activities mentioned in this thread.

117

I think you’ll find very few who are suffering from an “STD phobia”. Not worrying about disease is merely one of several benefits of abstinence.

Do you worry about disease or unwanted pregnancy? Can I describe you as having a “not-getting-any phobia”?

118

That’s hardy the ‘middle ground’ you mentioned. So no wonder you can’t relate to it being fulfilling. A more realistic ‘middle ground’ is easy to imagine as being fulfilling.

119

cowgirl-that’s fine, but I HAVE met people who have said to me, “You don’t drink? Then what do you DO?” People who can’t imagine having fun that doesn’t involve booze, or whatever. I think that shows a lack of imagination.

Once again, I do NOT think all people who drink are alcoholics? Point out to me WHERE I said that?

Now, I like a drink every now and then. But because of the meds I’m on, I really can’t do any more than that. So I don’t really have a choice.

As for sex, yeah, I’m a virgin-not by choice, but that’s just the way it worked out. Oh well. It’ll happen eventually, I’m sure. In the mean time, if you don’t like being judged for doing things YOUR way, why not extend the same courtesy to people who think differently from you, mmmkay?
athelas, I’m so with you.

And just for the record, I’d like to say that I do NOT consider sex or drinking a “vice”. Drinking in excess every weekend, getting bombed, having black outs and then having random, unprotected sex with complete strangers that you wouldn’t even give the time of day to while sober? Yeah, that’s more of a problem. But I don’t think anyone here is doing THAT.

120

Except that we have already discussed, with examples, how someone who is not seeking sex or alcohol CAN have a wide choice of social gatherings and activities available to occupy their time. Let’s stay on-topic, we’re not talking about "a life free of social gatherings"but “a life free of [so-called] vice”. Someone CAN be a celibate teetotaler and NOT be a hermit. Maybe that person can share wiith their friends a quiet, subdued evening discussing philosophy over tea and sushi, or a weekend hiking a forest trail, or seek to meet people at book readings or art exhibits, or join a club of their preferred brand of geekdom. Hell, a noncelibate drinker may actually also prefer those scenes! I find myself undisturbed by a person who just does not like the stereotypical young-adult party environment, it’s just de gustibus to me.