Except I never said I was right and that everyone else was wrong. I said I was right FOR ME. Personally. Everyone person has to decide that for themselves.
I also take issue with your assertation that no booze and no sex make a person dull. Would you have considered say, Oscar Romero a dull person? Hardly. What about Gandhi?
My attitude has been, “Christ died for our sins so who am I to make his sacrifice for nothing?”
There is a difference between not doing something because it appeals to you and claiming you don’t do it out of high moral purpose. I hate yams, but I don’t consider myself of higher moral caliber than those who like them. Likewise, drugs never appealed to me, and I never touched the stuff even in college, despite being in close physical proximity to kilos and having the Cambridge cops tell us the only way we’d get busted is by growing pot plants in a window overlooking the police station. I don’t feel morally superior to my friends who did - and they didn’t feel morally superior to me.
As for alcohol, I suspect these guys say they’re just like Jesus except of higher morals since they don’t drink. :rolleyes:
In order to be more inclusive of the clean living virgins who have never touched a drop of wine, played bingo or the lottery, entered a raffle, or inhaled any devil weed, let’s add some vices to the list which have been strangely absent the thread so far:
Chocolate
Caffeine
Television
Surfing the internet/posting on a messageboard
One I would not count as a vice, but I’ve no doubt millions would, is masturbation.
And to answer a rhetorical from above, I would have certainly found Ghandi to be boring as dirt. Same with the Dalai Llama. Way cool to hang out with for a week or so, but give it a couple of months and I’d gnaw my arm off to get to Vegas.
As to the OP? Clean living isn’t living. Everyone has their vices. Imagine a life consisting of:
Very quickly, this is becoming a life not worth living. While anyone could take offense when their particular virtue is called out as pointless, all these “vices” are definitely worthwhile. Any rationalization to avoid them is just that; getting pregnant is certainly a bad consequence, but so is having your teeth rot out of your head. In the end, it seems to me that avoiding any given vice is a mostly arbitrary decision, and as such is no more worthy of pride than shame.
…said the guy who embraces vice in all forms. Then again, what do you call a lifestyle that embraces vice?
A “lust for life.”
[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
So is someone pathological and warped if anything is more important to them in their lives than sex? What about someone whose marriage is important to them, so they don’t sleep with anyone other than their spouse, even if they meet someone who they would like to sleep with if they were not married- are they pathological and warped due to marriage? Is someone like Sarahfeena pathological and warped because her desire to not become pregnant was more important than sex to her?
[/QUOTE]
But these reasons have real consequences. If you end up doing the deed in spite of your belief in God, well, what will happen really?
I don’t want to seem offensive, but it seems the most that will happen is that you’ll get chastised by your religious peers should they find out. And if so, it’s because of their belief in God and issues with sex. The mind really does boggle on this one…
[QUOTE=ParentalAdvisory]
But these reasons have real consequences. If you end up doing the deed in spite of your belief in God, well, what will happen really?
I don’t want to seem offensive, but it seems the most that will happen is that you’ll get chastised by your religious peers should they find out. And if so, it’s because of their belief in God and issues with sex. The mind really does boggle on this one…
[/QUOTE]
The negative consequence doesn’t have to be something as concrete as you are thinking. A relationship with God and choosing whether or not to have sex doesn’t have anything to do with one’s religious peers, for one thing. It’s not necessarily one’s reputation one is trying to protect…it’s the actual relationship with God. Getting and staying close to God is not easy, and different people have different ways of doing it. Christians believe that trying to live a virtuous life (however one defines it, and of course it’s not all about sex), and talking to God about our failures and asking forgiveness is part of that relationship. I imagine that for Jewish folks like Anne Neville it is much the same. Religious people feel disconnected from God when they knowingly commit acts of any kind that cause a separation from him.
Besides that, the reasons Anne Neville gave don’t necessarily have real consequences. It’s quite possible to cheat on a spouse for years without them ever finding out. Does that make this behavior ok, because no one is the wiser?
To me, sex is simply not a typical “vice” like having too much to drink. As a Christian, I believe that sex is a gift from God that is not to be taken lightly, but to be fully appreciated within its proper context. I can see why someone who isn’t religious might not understand that, but on the other hand, I don’t see where this attitude can possibly be considered pathological and warped.
But thinking about vices like drinking, people who enjoy drinking know that this is enjoyed best in its proper context as well…after work, for example, not when sitting at your desk or on a job site in the middle of the day. It’s really no different.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Not to single Christians out, but what’s the deal with people who completely abstain from all vices?
[/quote]
Cost-benefit analysis. Beneift - ‘fun’ (unlikely at best). Cost - any number of potentially damaging or fatal results . I value my brain too much to risk it by throwing ‘recreational’ chemicals at it, possibly damaging it permanently.
It’s ok. I can live without it. I have bottles around here that have been unopened for a couple of years. I don’t find the ‘buzz’ to be fun at all; rather it’s uncomfortable and unpleasant.
If I drink I drink for taste but I don’t do that often either given there’s a definite connection between alcohol consumption and breast cancer.
Again, cost-benefit analysis. Benefit - tastes good. But not to the point that I MUST have it or crave it. I could never have another drink and not care. Cost - potential negatives to health.
Sex with someone you truly love = fillet mignon from Kobe beef. = The finest of champagnes. = The most wonderful chocolate truffle ever. Bumping uglies just to get your rocks off = an old stale McD burger. What’s the point? I can have all the orgasms I care to without dealing with fears of STDs or hooking up with a nutjob.
Cost - benefit? Benefit - the sensations might be pleasant. If he’s any good. Cost - waste of time and energy when I can do it much better myself.
Meh. Been there, done that. Not that exciting. It was cool to do it in Monte Carlo because it was Monte Carlo but it’s boring. I get a bigger thrill out of a bidding race at an auction.
Cost - benefit? Benefit - none that I can see. Cost ? - I suppose possibly getting hooked if I ever found it interesting.
Frankly, I’d think someone whose only idea of ‘fun’ is ‘drugs, alcohol, sex and gambling’ an excruciatingly dull companion. Nobody’s more boring than a drunk except possibly someone strung out on drugs.
‘Natural urge’? I’m pretty sure that there is nothing in Nature urging anyone to drink booze, take drugs, or gamble. Sex, yes, is a natural urge but again orgasms can be had easily enough without involving possibly unpleasant people.
I would put it to you that numbing oneself with chemicals is an escape from one’s natural state and bespeaks an inability to find entertainment in oh, say, life.
Your argument is basically ‘everybody who doesn’t like spending time the way I like to is nuts’ which is merely a matter of tastes and not a true debate, I’m thinking.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Your argument is basically ‘everybody who doesn’t like spending time the way I like to is nuts’ which is merely a matter of tastes and not a true debate, I’m thinking.
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t say they were nuts, just boring. Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do? Sit at home reading a book or playing X-Box? Go to a movie? Prey to Jesus? That’s fine and all, but you’re basically watching someone else’s made-up life, not living your own. A lot of those activities are fairly isolating too.
I mean what kind of person does a cost-benefit risk analysis of every activity they undertake? Yeah there are risks when you step out of the house.
Also, there is evidence that people who drink in moderation have more financial success in life. It’s kind of like golf. A lot of business conversations take place out at the bar with clients or coworkers. Of coure the flip side of that is you don’t want to be the office lush either. That never helped anyones career.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Prey to Jesus?
[/QUOTE]
On Saturdays, Jesus hunts the most dangerous game of all.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do? Sit at home reading a book or playing X-Box? Go to a movie? Prey to Jesus?
[/quote]
It doesn’t take an MPP to come up with interesting ideas. For starters, invite some friends over for dinner. Have a euchre tournament or play another game. Go for a walk. Go dancing (at actual dances rather than bars). Grab a pal, go for a drive to a new part of town, and have a snack at a restaurant you’ve never tried. Or go swimming. Have a potluck. Have friends over for movie night. Act in a play or sing in a choir. If you’re alone, work on a hobby or take up a new one and learn how to do it. Design your next home reno project. Try a new recipe. Watch something on Discovery or PBS. Plan your next vacation. Get your investments in order. Clean something. Heck, there’s not enough time in a lifetime to do all the interesting things possible!
I am never bored and pretty much the very last thing I’d consider doing on a free night is go out and drink unless I had a friend who really wanted to go because we never do. I tend to think that people who can only think of drinking as entertainment might be lacking in imagination.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Oh ok..I guess we can close the thread down then :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Why would you possibly care? Isn’t the fact that people are all different enough reason for someone to choose to bypass the “vice” aisle? Is anyone else’s choice to abstain from sex or drink going to affect your ability to choose? I don’t hear anyone saying everyone has to stop doing their own thing. When that happens, you have an issue; but it’s a completely different issue from choosing to partake or abstain from the standard list of naughty stuff.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
It doesn’t take an MPP to come up with interesting ideas. For starters, invite some friends over for dinner. Have a euchre tournament or play another game. Go for a walk. Go dancing (at actual dances rather than bars). Grab a pal, go for a drive to a new part of town, and have a snack at a restaurant you’ve never tried. Or go swimming. Have a potluck. Have friends over for movie night. Act in a play or sing in a choir. If you’re alone, work on a hobby or take up a new one and learn how to do it. Design your next home reno project. Try a new recipe. Watch something on Discovery or PBS. Plan your next vacation. Get your investments in order. Clean something. Heck, there’s not enough time in a lifetime to do all the interesting things possible!
I am never bored and pretty much the very last thing I’d consider doing on a free night is go out and drink unless I had a friend who really wanted to go because we never do. I tend to think that people who can only think of drinking as entertainment might be lacking in imagination.
[/QUOTE]
I love this post. I always found going barhopping or clubbing to be exceedingly boring. I do enjoy going to have a couple of beers and a bite to eat at a local place, if I am with interesting people and the place is quiet enough to have a conversation. Other than that, it’s a waste of time to just “go out” and stand around in a bar where it’s too loud to talk to anyone and everyone is getting drunk. Give me just about any of the activities you mention other than that any day! And, despite my posts, I am not what I would consider vice-free by any stretch, but premarital sex doesn’t apply to me at this point, and the others mentioned I just find boring. I don’t think it’s a vice if it isn’t fun for the person participating!
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
It doesn’t take an MPP to come up with interesting ideas. For starters…
[/QUOTE]
Ah, and here we have one of the dangers of vices: they can, if you’re not careful, turn you into someone who can’t come up with anything to do without them.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
I didn’t say they were nuts, just boring. Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do?
[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, when Saturday night comes what does someone who does drink but who doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs and is not in a steady relationship do? If they sit at home and read a book but drink while doing it, does that make them less “boring”?
[QUOTE=msmith537]
The point is that you only get one life and it doesn’t last all that long. You need to figure out a balance between going crazy like each day is your last and planning for the fact that it probably won’t be.
[/quote]
Let’s back up for a moment.
You started the thread by asking what “the point” of a vice-free life is. Thus you’ve acknowledged that human life should have a point, or in other words a purpose that we strive for beyond mere physical necessities.
Now you’ve said that the point of life is “to figure out a balance between going crazy like each day is your last and planning for the fact that it probably won’t be.” So you’re saying, if I understand correctly, a person achieves their purpose by engaging in some vice, but less vice than the maximum possible. They refrain from the maximum possible vice because it’s necessary to plan for the future.
But in your philosophy, what does the future hold that’s worth planning for? Seemingly only more opportunities for limited vice. Therefore (correct me if I’m wrong) you advocate planning all of life around well-ordered pursuit of vice.
I join many others in saying that such a plan brings no prospect of happiness.
Look at it this way. Has any old man, on his deathbed after a prolonged battle with disease, ever looked back over his life any said, “Well, I drank 21,374 beers, smoked crack 138 times, had sex 2,955 times with 28 different women, and lost a total of $37,578.22 at poker. Yes, this was an abundant and fulfilling life. I can die with no regrets.” Do you know anyone who thinks that way?
Thus most folks conclude that “the point” must be something other than hedonism. Many conclude that the point is to love God, which includes serving God, which may include (depending on one’s interpretation of messages and current situation in life) living totally or partially free from certain vices.
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Just out of curiosity, when Saturday night comes what does someone who does drink but who doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs and is not in a steady relationship do? If they sit at home and read a book but drink while doing it, does that make them less “boring”?
[/QUOTE]
I think it makes them more boring. I’d rather be out not drinking than sitting around with a six pack of beer watching TV. A little alchohol can make a night out a bit more fun though.
I know a guy who was telling me about a ski trip where they got so drunk and hungover they couldn’t even ski. Or some guys I know who spent their college spring break getting drunk in their hotel room. That’s a pointless waste of time. Drinking is something that accompanies a good time, it should not be the focus of it.
Also, the constant cycle of late night barhopping/spend day hungover in front of TV can get pretty boring and pointless. It’s not particularly good for you either.
ITR champion, that was a good post, Quiddity Glomfuster, good post also. You have described most of my Saturday nights.
I enjoy reading a book and having a cocktail all by myself! Like Sarahfeena, I find the idea of going to a bar filled with strangers and loud music just about the last thing I’d ever want to do. Let’s see: wrote letters, cooked a week’s worth of food, rented a foriegn film, practiced a skit, saw a play, read a total of 6 books and stayed by my friend’s side while his wife had a baby. These are all the things I’ve done with my last several Saturdays.
Only once since July have I gone to a “bar” on a Saturday (or indeed, any) night. This was the hotel bistro on a Saturday night in Toronto while on a business trip, I’d worked about 14 hours that day and just wanted to sit with a pint of Guiness and a cheeseburger and not use my brain.
Does this make me boring?
[QUOTE=Voyager]
There is a difference between not doing something because it appeals to you and claiming you don’t do it out of high moral purpose. I hate yams, but I don’t consider myself of higher moral caliber than those who like them. Likewise, drugs never appealed to me, and I never touched the stuff even in college, despite being in close physical proximity to kilos and having the Cambridge cops tell us the only way we’d get busted is by growing pot plants in a window overlooking the police station. I don’t feel morally superior to my friends who did - and they didn’t feel morally superior to me.
As for alcohol, I suspect these guys say they’re just like Jesus except of higher morals since they don’t drink. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Great point!
[QUOTE=jali]
Great point!
[/QUOTE]
It has been my experience that it is the people who do drink who make a big moral issue out of not drinking. I suspect the ‘you think you’re better than me because you don’t drink’ mentality arises from the drinker’s own guilt and ambivalence over the value of basting one’s brain in alcohol regularly.
I don’t feel morally superior to people who love to get blotto. They just bore me. I think it’s a foolish thing to do, but it has nothing to do with morality.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
I didn’t say they were nuts, just boring. Saturday night comes what does someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t like to go to bars or clubs, and is not in a steady relationship do? Sit at home reading a book or playing X-Box? Go to a movie? Prey to Jesus? That’s fine and all, but you’re basically watching someone else’s made-up life, not living your own. A lot of those activities are fairly isolating too.
[/QUOTE]
Firstly, steady relationships are not a vice, and a person can be in one without doing any of the four things banned by those Christian colleges. This is an important distinction, because the truth is that any entertainment, viceful or not, can be isolating or it can aid socializing, depending on how the person pursues it. It’s entirely possible to form a peer-group around reading, music, movies, video-games, dancing, amateur ceramics, religion, sports, etc… Moreoever, I’d humbly suggest that such peer groups might, on the average, endure longer and prove more satisfying than a group which gathers only to drink beer, for instance. If five people form a band, they’re working together towards a common goal of producing good music; it requires teamwork, dedication, and discipline. On the other hand, if five gather once a week at a bar, there’s no pressure to keep together. The act of drinking beer can be carried out just as easily in isolation.
You seem to approach these vices with the assumption that those who participate are living more fully and pleasurably, but obviously those who abstain don’t see it that way. Participating in a vice has costs in terms of time, money, and other things. Spend more on a vice and you have less to spend elsewhere. Just as with anything in life, there are tradeoffs.
Lastly, all the vices listed carry the danger of addiction. So for college-aged people, not participating is pot-smoking (for example) can be a very sound decision if they suspect they won’t have the willpower to resist addiction.