One of the religious clashed you dismissed earlier…
There was no single renaissance. Over the best part of a millennia, various parts of Europe lost and rediscovered various aspects of learning from the Roman era. But there was no sudden realisation that they’d been going wrong, and that they could do things differently. It’s just a convenient term for high school lessons, and a correct and applicable term for art historians.
And guess where anybody in that period who wanted to learn properly had to go and study?? That’s right, boys and girls, they went to study with the MUSLIMS!!! The people who didn’t look on any questioning or exploratory thought as heretical. The people who would translate from other languages, rather than dismiss them as ungodly or simply unnecessary. The people who remembered how Rome functioned, with a constant trading of ideas, of knowledge, of cultures, of experiences.
Hows this different from what the people do to accomodate people of Islamic faith? Whats so wrong in letting immigrants embrace our culture and beliefs (what I mean is in democracy, voting, engaging in society and being tolerant?)
Throughout history, Christianity’s track record on most of that has been pretty bad as well. Why is it you think Islamic culture won’t change over time as well?
This is a very good thing. For decades, french muslims had totally unadequate places of worship, both in number and quality. I live at a short distance from the second largest mosque in Paris, and you wouldn’t believe that such a building is a place of worship, let alone a major one. Most towns opposed the building of any mosque (because the electors didn’t want one in their backyard) , for instance by preempting the places were the mosques were to be built, or changing the zoning regulations, or whatever else. Including very large cities with huge muslim population, like Marseille, for instance.
In many places muslims had to rent totally unadequate places, and often to pray outside the “mosque” because it was way too small for the local muslim population, or just had no place of worship at all.
There still aren’t enough mosques in France, by a long shot, and it’s a shame because, as I wrote above, it’s frequently the result of active policies by the local authorities to prevent their building. So, I hope many more will be built in the future. Apart from having the significant advantage of pissing off the like of ** Ryan_Liam **, it will also incindentally give muslims the feeling they’re somewhat accepted in the country they’re citizens of , and often born in.
Now, if our goal is to make them feel they’re hated, or antogonize them in order to make sure their children will consider terrorism as an attractive career path, we sure shouldn’t allow them to build mosques or close the existing ones.
Instead of having panic attacks when they see a mosque , the “french christian community” should rather go to the attached hammam. They would feel more relaxed afterwards.
It probably will. But why should I have to see Western Europe taken over by it and then the people have to wait all over again, maybe for a few centuries, to fight for their rights yet again? Maybe because taking a few steps back is silly, don’t you think?
OK, Ryan_Liam, you think that Muslims in this country are trying to perpetuate the most restricitve practices of the middle east? Tommorow, go to your nearest area with a large Muslim presence. Count how many burqas you see. I bet it’s none. Count how many young women you see fraternising with men their own age. You’ll see plenty. Count the hijab/bare-head ratio. You’ll be surprised. Be nice to the guy in the takeaway, and he’ll probably offer you an under-counter beer (they’re not forbidden from selling it, just drinking it ). Try TALKING to people. Not about anything in particular, just let the conversation drift. Try cricket for starters. Ask about some food you’ve never tried before - find out what it is, and try it. Maybe you won’t like it. That doesn’t make you a bad person. Assuming you won’t like it is ignorance.
:rolleyes: ‘Oh no not another Mosque! because I am so ignorant I may go blind to the amount of culture I have just witnessed!’
Give me a break, what I imply in all of this, is that I would like to see more emphasis on both sides is more dialogue, more openess, none this ghetto and segregation voluntarily enforced, and more acceptance of our practises and society and more shunning of Islamic militants. More research invested into making their societies and helping their countries reach better standards of living and democracy.
I just don’t want to ever witness an Islamic dominated Europe. Ever.
I have plenty of Muslim friends, but I think its ok to not want them to become a majority anymore than they would like to see me become a majority in their country.
I could as well say that since the muslims have not been the victims of the holocaust, a lot of people (wink, wink) don’t feel guilty and as a result don’t hesitate to make statements about muslims that would infuriate them if they were made about the Jews. Forget about that. You…err…I mean they would foam at the mouth if they read on this board threads about the Jews 1/10th as bigoted as some (wink, wink) which are posted about the muslims.
I’ve a good read for you about the muslim domination of the world. It’s called “the protocol of the elder of Mecca”, or somesuch.
Now, excuse me but I must prepare myself for the fight against the people
Well its what some Islamists have declared from time to time, maybe you should check it out.
The Muslim take over wouldn’t be on purpose, mostly to do with jobs and opportunities which are very attractive, say one goes over, or a family, then they bring their relatives, and so forth, plus them staying very close knit for a few generations adds to this.
Heh, this is bigoted looks like I can’t enquire or complain about anything. Prove me that my entire outlook is flawed and I shouldn’t worry for the long term of Western Europe. Then I’ll retract this.
And you’ve told them you’d rather not see too many of their relatives come over here, or for them to have too many children, and that if pushed you’d “take up arms” against them? What was their response?
How about this, I’ll ask them how they would like it if a majority of Western people lived back in their country. I’ll monitor their reaction. It would be the same as mine. Besides, you’re missing my point, I’d take up arms on the fact that some of my freedoms I enjoy today would be marginalised tomorrow if it happened. Or will you refute that?
You have a big problem if you can’t tell the difference between enquiring and what you’re doing, which is mainly making enormous generalizations about people who you say are backwards and intolerant and shouldn’t be allowed to take over your country.
How does somebody disprove “I weep for the future?”
No it wouldn’t. Because for many Muslim peoples, occupation and invasion is reality. You have no idea what it would be like. Nor do I. You say you’d take up arms…you mean like the guys in Najaf, many barely teenagers, destined to die today, tomorrow, or in the eventual storming of the area? You’d stand and fight?
I state that it will never happen. You’ve gone on about it for three pages without a shred of evidence that fundamentalist Islam is taking over anywhere, or that it’s spreading through Muslim Britain.
). Try TALKING to people. Not about anything in particular, just let the conversation drift. Try cricket for starters. Ask about some food you’ve never tried before - find out what it is, and try it. Maybe you won’t like it. That doesn’t make you a bad person. Assuming you won’t like it is ignorance.