What's the True Cost of Mass Immigration?

Great Debates
1

Whats the TRUE COST OF MASS…IMMIGRATION???
First of all I dont “hate” Immigrants!

I stand against Mass Immigration for very simple…very logical reasons!

This post is a bit long…but read it…check it out…look through the links…and then you’ll understand why!

What are the effects of MASS IMMIGRATION?

  1. LOWER WAGES:
    This is just ECONOMICS 101…more workers=lower wages.
    (thats why the common American worker has NOT seen a lift in his/her earning power since 1965… The exact same year we started MASS IMMIGRATION!!!

you dont know about that?

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/09/25/W...pay_down_.shtml

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0%...80908%2C00.html
2) LESS JOBS:
Once again this is ECONOMICS 101…More workers=LESS JOBS
(hence the ~20,000,000 Americans who cant find Jobs RIGHT NOW…(Interesting to note that we have about ~15,000,000 ILLEGALS WORKING in this country RIGHT NOW…!

  1. CRIME:
    again this is rather simple…currently about ~1 in 3 persons in jail in California are Mexican nationals[/COLORS]
    (…please recall that it COSTS about ~$35,000/year to keep 1 person in jail!..so how much money are we wasting here???)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020925-11624656.htm

http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/o...d=4259&ion=NEWS

  1. MORE CRIME:
    …(this may take some more thought)

…The Government(s) Jails are “full”…they dont have enough Beds to meet the high demand, so our governments are FREEING criminals who should still be in Jail, Because 1 in 3 beds have an Immigrant sleeping in them!!!)

…this means that thousands of criminals…Killers…Drug Pimps…crooks…etc…even men convicted of RAPE! are being sent back out to YOUR streets (many often KILL and RAPE again!!!)…because we “dont have enough beds for them”!

… I honestly Hope that your Wife…Your Daughter…Your Mother…Your Grandmother…are not there next prey!

Now…if our government sent these Immigrants back to whereever they came from…we could free up about ~1/3 of our beds in our jails…for our Criminals!

Thats would mean thousands
LESS men looking to kill and Rape in your home town!

http://www.thenewsmexico.com/noticia.asp?id=36005

  1. EDUCATIONAL ISSUES:

Thousands of our Government schools are no longer able to teach! They are so packed full of ILLEGALS CHILDREN that they cant function! The teachers dont know what to do…suddenly ~20%…~40%…even 70% of the children in their school cant even speak English!

So…teachers and schools are forced into spending 90% of their time and engergy and money working with these ILLEGAL children…Alll the while the Real American children are getting screwed out of an education!
(we are paying for!)

Why are REAL AMERICAN kids paying full price at university…and ILLEGALS and IMMIGRANTS going on the cheap?

…wont these same Immigrants be looking to compete for the exact same Jobs YOUR kids had to Pay FULL PRICE to apply for?

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0...%7E%2C00.html

  1. HEALTHCARE:
    Anyone who reads the news knows very well that our high immigration states healthcare system is being destroyed!

…MILLIONS of Immigrants are flooding into the healthcare system…they are placing huge demands on a healthcare system that was already questionable to start with!

…In fact many doctors and healthcare workers are fleeing these high immigration states because if they didnt they would be forced into Chapter 11! (or 7)

So at a time when millions of REAL Americans cant even get Healthcare…Millions of ILLEGAL Immigrants are!

At a time when Millions of REAL Americans are working a 2nd or 3rd Job to provide basic healthcare for their children…Millions of Immigrants are getting a free ride for themsleves and their 6.7 children!

dont think so?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...counties26.html

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/9_26_02border.html

http://www.borderlandnews.com/stori...925-25346.shtml

http://www.bordercounties.org/index...pe=B_BASIC&SEC={C90385BE-27F1-4E75-98F1-450DD3608069}

…thats real fair!

  1. HIGHER TAXES:

…a simple equation here…more Immigrants=more people in need of government help= more cost for government services= HIGHER TAXES!

…a study in 1998 found that on average…for every 1 immigrant we add to our nation…the total cost is about ~$55,000 to out govenmental systems!
(remember that the vast majority of Immigratns are low skilled…low pay workers… Who dont pay Taxes!

dont think thats true?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,49045,00.html

http://www.herald-sun.com/evergreen/93-270453.html

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...counties26.html

  1. POLITICAL REALITY:

Everyone knows that people by and large tend to support their own kind! (well everyone but WHITE PEOPLE anyway!)

At first this is not a real issue because the immigrants numbers are very small and their power is limited.

However…as their numbers grow…So does their power…once an Immigrant population takes root and gains some power it starts to work for its own interests…NOT the interests of the larger nation!

hence…we now see entire regions of the USA that are working toward a new America.

…For example…the districts of the upper midwest were the only ones whos officials didnt vote to support the “war on terror” this year…why you ask?

Because the upper midwest is now the home of MILLIONS of ARABS and MUSLIMS…they no longer share the views (for right or wrong !) of the rest of America.

moreover…this same region is now working to stop support of Isreal…and the “war on Sadam”…(not saying they are wrong here…thats a matter of debate…just making the point that this region is now a nation within a nation!!!)

…futhermore…there is now open talk of the South Western US leaving the Union!! The simple fact is that in only ~30 years we have IMPORTED about ~40,000,000 “hispanics” (mostly MExicans) in this nation…and the vast majority have settled in the same region the SW USA!

… Many of these “immigrants” are now calling for their own nation…they call it…“Atzland”…this nation will include California…NV,NM,TX…and parts of CO!!!

…The future of the USA is in trouble…because we wanted some slaves to pick our fruit for us…now these slaves want their won nation!

not sure about that?

http://www.glenwoodindependent.com/...09240004&Ref=AR

http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/R...ctio970719.html

Help Center - The Arizona Republic…-estrada25.html

http://www.vdare.com/francis/fox_plans.htm

http://www.thenewsmexico.com/noticia.asp?id=36033

  1. ENVIROMENTAL DESTRUCTION:

AS any Biologist will tell you…this single greatest factor in the destruction of our natural world is…PEOPLE!

Its just a simple fact of life (that the “media”…and the CORPORATE WHORES out there dont want you to think about!)

MAss Immigration might be great for the rich who want Slave labor…but its horrific for our natural systems!

Every time we take Mr. Third World our of his hut…we kill off more of our greenspace to make room for his house.

Everytime we take MR. Third World off of his horse…We pump thousands of pounds of greenhouse gases into our Air!

Everytime we take Miss Third World out of her outhouse…We toss millions of pounds of First world Toxic Waste into our WATER!

Evertime we move Miss Third world out of her farm…She heads (with here 6.7 children) to …Burger King…and they toss Millions of Pounds of Toxic trash into out SOIL!!

“The same with water. Dams, river diversions, and other hydrology projects will mask for a short time - but not forever - the real truth. The truth that rivers carry just so much water, snow falls into mountain reservoirs just so much each winter, and the nation’s largest underground aquifers are, in fact, being used faster than they recharge”
“It is one thing to talk about a population explosion in India, where the bicycle is the standard of personal transport. But when that level of density is superimposed on an automobile-dependent state, skyrocketing highway congestion makes the simplest activities increasingly frustrating. Every Californian (except those in the remotest areas) spends additional hours of precious personal time driving to work”
… and all this time they are burning fuels!

“Because of population growth, California will be chronically short of water by 2010. (That means higher consumer costs, possible water rationing and ecologically damaging schemes like the Peripheral Canal — which was defeated at the polls in 1982 but is being politically repackaged for today’s more extreme needs.)”

“• Southern California’s Metropolitan Water District, serving 16 million people, says its existing water supply will meet only 43 percent of the demand in the year 2010.”

"• According to Sen. Paul Simon’s book “Tapped Out,” without preventive action by policymakers, California may face dry wells and disappearing water tables, leading to Dust Bowl-like conditions. "

“• California is losing farmland at a rate of up to 300,000 acres per year. The American Farmland Trust predicts that 15 percent of the Central Valley’s cultivated land could be lost to population pressures — the number of Valley residents is predicted to double in the next 40 years.”

“• Caltrans reported (2/19/99) that traffic congestion on California urban freeways is increasing an average of 10 percent per year, costing motorists nearly $8 million in lost time and excess fuel use each day.”

“• While the state’s population went up nearly 50 percent in the last 20 years (from 24 to 34 million), the lanes of new roads increased over the same period by just 16 percent, with most of that occurring within new subdivisions.”

“• By 2020, drivers in Southern California are expected to spend 70 percent of their time in stop-and-go traffic, as compared to 56 percent now, according to the Southern California Association of Governments, due to exploding population.”

“• The nine counties that comprise the Bay Area are projected to grow in population from 6.9 to eight million by 2020.”
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-t...california.html
http://www.sacbee.com/static/archiv...ands/index.html

and more… http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../18/MN90782.DTL

and more… http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../18/MN90782.DTL

and more… http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...11/MN182761.DTL

and more… cap-s.org

and more… http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...30/MN121959.DTL

"Interview with Earth Day Founder Gaylord Nelson He named population as the #1 environmental problem, then went on to say, “But in this country, it’s phony to say ‘I’m for the environment but not for limiting immigration.’ It’s just a fact that we can’t take all the people who want to come here.”

"Gaylord Nelson, 84, now counselor to the Wilderness SocietyHis zest for conservation propelled him from a seat in the Wisconsin Senate into the governorship in 1958, the first Democrat to occupy the office in 25 years. By 1962, he had broadened his environmental horizons, winning election to the U.S. Senate, where he served until swept from office by incoming Reagan Republicans in 1980. By then, he was better known nationally and internationally as the founder of Earth Day, April 22, 1970, a kind of coast-to-coast teach-in that involved 20 million people. At a conference of grass roots environmental groups in Oshkosh this weekend sponsored by the River Alliance and the Gathering Waters Conservancy, Nelson responded to these

***************questions from Journal
Sentinel environmental reporter Jo Sandin:

Q. What is the number one environmental problem facing the earth today?
A. If you had to choose just one, it would have to be population. . . . The bigger the population gets, the more serious the problems become. . . . We have to address the population issue. The United Nations, with the U.S. supporting it, took the position in Cairo in 1994 that every country was responsible for stabilizing its own population. It can be done. But in this country, it’s phony to say “I’m for the environment but not for limiting immigration.” It’s just a fact that we can’t take all the people who want to come here. And you don’t have to be a racist to realize that. However, the subject has been driven out of public discussion because everybody is afraid of being called racist if they say they want any limits on immigration"

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/...22s1042101a.asp

“Price of power
A century after John Muir served as the Sierra Club’s first president, environmental groups have successfully traded on his legacy, becoming bigger and richer than ever before. But in their quest for power and money, have they cashed in their tradition?”

http://www.sacbee.com/static/archiv...nt/index02.html

The American West and South West: Population growth makes means the exstiction of more species here than any place in the nation: http://www.sacbee.com/static/archiv.../graphic5a.html

“Despite seven years of mostly ample Sierra Nevada snowpack, California is teetering on the edge of a profound water shortfall that experts say could rival this year’s power shortages for economic and social disruption.
We anticipate the urban demand for water will rise from the 1995 figure of 8.8 million acre-feet to 12 million acre-feet by 2020,” Roos said. An acre- foot is 326,000 gallons, or about enough water to support a five-person household for one year.
From 1995 through 2000, drainage of the Sacramento River, the state’s main water source, yielded an annual average of 18.1 million acre-feet of water. The Sacramento system is expected to top out at 9.7 million acre-feet for the current hydrologic year, which ends in September.

“No matter what you do with conservation, it won’t be enough. There’s too much demand.”

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...22/MN203356.DTL
“Immigration’s Dire Effect On The Environment”

"The recent resignation of David Brower from the board of the Sierra Club was unarguably newsworthy. The San Francisco-based organization has 600,000 members and ranks among the most influential environmental advocacy groups…Brower joined the club in 1933, was its first executive director in the 1950s and 1960s, and is ranked after John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt as a signal environmentalist. Yet on May 18 he resigned from the board “with no regret and a bit of desperation.” Fittingly, Brower’s act received its fullest coverage in the San Francisco Chronicle. A surprisingly large number of papers, including the Atlanta Constitution, chose not to run it at all. Others edited out what prompted Brower’s act. Brower asserted that “the planet is being trashed, but the board has no real sense of urgency.” He protested the board’s support of federal government proposals that he felt would contravene the club’s original mandate to protect the California Sierras. He further chastised the club’s leadership for not taking a strong stance on U.S. population growth and immigration. "

“Overpopulation is perhaps the biggest problem facing us, and immigration is part of the problem. It has to be addressed,” he said.

“Even retaining this admonition left the casual reader ill-informed about the severity of the country’s overpopulation problem. Shortly after the first Earth Day in 1970, the President’s Commission on Population Growth and America’s Future urged Congress to act with alacrity to stabilize the population of 200 million. Ecologists such as Paul and Anne Ehrlich of Stanford University peg 150 million as the maximum level consonant with long-term habitat preservation.”

… More people like YOU…had better get involved is this fight…or YOUR nation is going to be destroyed!
Kukulkon
How Many Americans? : Population, Immigration and the Environment
by Leon F. Bouvier, Lindsey Grant (Contributor), B. Ras (Editor
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...5572836-6194323

Perhaps…Those of you who still care…Will Join us?

The Hour is late !

http://www.numbersusa.com

http://www.americanpatrol.com

2

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING? And why does it take you so long to finish a sentence?

By the way, I assume you are of Native American descent, right?

3

THE…REAL… QUESTION…IS…WHAT …IS …THE
SOCIAL…COST…OF …WRTITING
LIKE…WILLIAM …SHATNER…ACTS?

I’m sure you have some lovely points to make, i’m just not interested in all the homework assignments.

so go back to europe where you came from ya friggin foreigner!

4

Maybe you have time to reply to some of my criticisms on your political correctness thread?

5

What’s your problem, blowero and greck?!! I opened this thread firmly in favor of open immigration. Kukulkon’s use of capital letters and elipses made me realize that some restrictions were necessary, and the coup de grace - the use of colored text, convinced me that we must close our borders immediately.

So lay off.

Sua

6

Yeah! I think everyone who came here after [quickly checking family tree] . . . ummm, 1903 should be sent back the hell where they came!

7

First you say–

Then you say–

So. You just hate non-white immigrants? :smack: :wally

Anybody who has the stones to abandon their native land & come to a place as frickin’ weird as the good old USA is, has the potential to make a big success of themselves.

My Great-Granfather & G/Grandmother on Dad’s side were from Ireland, so the Irish do and did vote in blocks. For Kennedy!

My other side o’ the family was Polish & Transylvanian. I’ve never heard of a US politician who was Transylvanian. So Immigrants also don’t vote in blocks.

Phooey to you, Kukulkon. :stuck_out_tongue: :wally

8

First you say–

Then you say–

So. You just hate non-white immigrants? :smack: :wally

Anybody who has the stones to abandon their native land & come to a place as frickin’ weird as the good old USA is, has the potential to make a big success of themselves. They’re OK by me.

My Great-Grandfather & G/Grandmother on Dad’s side were from Ireland, so the Irish do and did vote in blocks. For Kennedy!

My other side o’ the family was Polish & Transylvanian. I’ve never heard of a US politician who was Transylvanian. So Immigrants also don’t vote in blocks.

Phooey to you, Kukulkon. :stuck_out_tongue: :wally

9

Cite, please?

10

Okay, Kuku, tell me one thing. How many immigrants would you “allow” per year, and from where?

11

Wow,

Lets just see here, what the score at old “straight dope”?

Comments about the Wages of American workers= 0

Comments about the ~20,000,000 Americans without Jobs= 0

Comments about the high crime rates of Immigrants= 0

Comments about the HUGE amount of cash being spent keeping all these Immigrants in our Jails = 0

Comments about the Destruction of our Education system= 0

Comments about the Destruction of our Helathcare system= 0

Comments about the high TAXES we are forced to pay= 0

Comments about the Political issues= 0

Comments about the Huge Enviromental issues Mass Immigration places on our natural systems = 0

Comments about trivial Bull Sh!T like…my…writting…style= 6

Yep! Thats sounds about right, from what ive come to find as the norm here at old “straight (smoke) Dope”!

[COLOR] Do any of you people here…ever…ever… think to post anything that is even close to being intellegent comments about the given article at hand?[/COLOR]

…is there a section of this board where all the people with I.Q.'s over 80 hang out and talk about real FACTS…real ISSUES?

Cause I would love find these people if they are to be found here.

Kukulkon

I have grown weary of the 80I.Q. LIBERAL Huffy Davidson gang i keep finding here.

12

Well, of my 8 great-grandparents who all came here, only four were here before 1903. Does that mean I have to send half of myself back to Europe? :eek:

Zev Steinhardt

13

Well, okay I asked for two things. By the way, my ancestors were immigrants, from several different countries. Which one should I go to?

14

So sorry that we have disappointed you, Kukulkon. Better luck at your next internet message board.

Bye, now.

Sua

15

Here’s a comment on substance: to count only the costs to U.S. workers and nothing else is a despicable sort of moral calculus. You cannot possibly address this issue honestly without accounting for the benefit to immigrants in terms of higher wages and opportunities.

Let alone the benefit to consumers of increased labor competition. American workers working under protectionist policies and hard-line immigration laws are exploiting me as a consumer, plain and simple. They are preventing me from trading with the people who can offer me certain goods I want at the lowest price I can find. And that’s just wrong.

You’ll actually find that, far from it being an issue of liberals, many conservative economists are in FAVOR of free immigration in exactly the same way they are in favor of free trade. Liberals tend to hold morally insane positions like limiting immigration while treating immigrants already here to benefit programs: meaning that they somehow have managed to reconcile the idea that what side of an imaginary border someone lives on determines our social obligations to support them.

16

With this president, i can’t say i blame them!

I bet that is a lie as well. What about that Berkley Representative lady? I KNOW she voted against it.

Yes, ARABS and MUSLIMS have different views, like darker skin. Damn them to hell!

Regional differences in a Nation??? Thats never happened before!!!

So they should equally dispearse themselves via a grand scheme?

That would be the territories we conquotred for Mexico? i think only a few nutcases want that. After all, who wants to live in Mexico? They just all came to live in the US, didn’t they? Why go back? And, if the Immigrants were dispeared like you want, the whole freakin’ country would want to rejoin Mexico!! Viva el Mexico!!

Maybe they could learn Spanish?

Teashers spend most of their time on the problem students, not the immigrant students. My mother is a teacher at a school that is getting more and more students that speak Spanish as a native language. They are not the problem. The “Real American” children are.

Probably because most “REAL AMERICAN” kids are lazy bums, while the immigrant children work hard to make their life better, and earn scholarships (that the “REAL AMERICAN” kids are too dumb to earn)

Oh, Boo Hoo. Can’t compete? Maybe you need to study instead of posting multicolored racist posts.

I AM a biologist, and this is pretty much correct. However, immigration is not the problem, overpopulation is. The US has a lot of open spaces, and can support many more people.

I agree that immigration to Massechusettes is horrible. I wouldn’t want to live there…:wink:

So Urban Sprawl is entirely the Immigrants fault? They can afford the $250,000 houses at slave labor wages? Please don’t take crack before you post.

These immigrants can buy houses and cars on slave wages? WTF??? maybe they can get jobs teaching Americans to manage money!!

I guess now we don’t have sewage treatment plants. Freakin’ Immigrants!!

are you that idiot who keeps putting up anti-Burger King flyers near the Burger King on 9th and Irving here in San Fran? So, Immigrants on slave wages can now afford $250,000 homes, cars, and daily trips to Burger King for 7 children?

Desalinisation plants would help, but i bet the super rich immigrants on slave wages are secretly funding sabotage in the research plants.

I AM a Californian, and i NEVER drive to work (like i want to pay $18 a day parking). So this is WRONG and a LIE.

So buy a bike, or take the bus. and Shut yer yap!

I am one of those population growth in the Bay Area people. Just means more women to turn me down for dates!!

17

Why is this racist troll still here? He’s not here to debate (his laughably stupid economic illiteracy really isn’t worthy of the effort to be frank, nor his “liberal” baiting(*)) he’s just doing drive by rants. That is a troll.

(*: As noted by Apos, good conservative economists are rather in favor of immigration, rationally managed and concieved of course.)

18

Another comment: “Once again this is ECONOMICS 101…More workers=LESS JOBS”

If this were “economics 101” then the entrance of a large number of women into the workforce should have produced “unemployment” rates well into double digits.
But it didn’t happen. Why? Because adding more workers is not a zero-sum game over time. If it were, any population growth would cripple nations with the unemployed. Having more workers in an economy also means that more WORK can be done. It’s more a question of how fast new jobs can be created to capture the benefits of their skills.

19

— As noted by Apos, good conservative economists are rather in favor of immigration, rationally managed and concieved of course.—

Drop off that last phrase, and you’ll be including far more economists as well. Many of the more libertarian sorts find it a little ridiculous that the government should have any say in who does or does not enter the country outside of security concerns.

20

“Mulitcolored racial posts”. :smiley:

WOO-HOO! Good one, Tars.

But also a good point. Since the only color Kuk likes is white, he should only post in that color. And if he posts white on white, we won’t be able to read his posts! An obvious advantage.

Kukulkon – the SDMB is a place where educated & refined people gather together to exhange their views in good conversation & good fellowship, & thereby gain enlightenment.

Lurk awhile, & learn something.

By the way, just how do you feel about Jews? ;j