What's the True Cost of Mass Immigration?

Great Debates
21

this is a really interesting topic, and you’re screwing it up for the rest of us by being what we in the mental health profession refer to as an a**hole

it’s not that people here aren’t intelligent, well educated or interested in genuine debate, it’s that when you beat someone on the head with a club (or hate speech) and then present them with more hate rhetoric,
then
a good point

guess what?

they don’t care what your point was
kind of like forcing ice cream down someone’s throat, then shaming them for not liking ben and jerry’s. surely you’re not so socially unskilled as to believe that you can be belligerent and have people thank you for it.

unless of course you are…

i may go back and read some of the urls you attached, but i won’t likely discuss them with you.

22

As a reasonably conservative economist, I concur. I am firmly in support of more immigration. Of course, I live in a relatively underpopulated country; if I lived in, say, the Netherlands, I might conclude the externalities of a larger population exceed the economic benefits.

But I live in Canada, and if you wanna come live here, I say, come on in!

Since the OP did ask, let me answer you, Kukulkon:

Here’s one; the effect of current immigration levels will not lower wages. Yes, it increases the supply of workers. If you’d bothered to stick around for the rest of the class, K, you’d know it also INCREASES the DEMAND for workers. More people means more people looking for jobs, but it also means more people buying houses, groceries, Game Boys, clothes, and cars, which means more workers are needed to produce those things.

Jobs result from a demand for things. A demand for food provides jobs for farmers, butchers, bakers, cooks, and grocery store clerks. A demand for haircuts provides jobs for barbers and hairdressers. A demand for cars provides jobs for auto factory workers, managers, car dealers, mechanics, road construction workers, etc. If you bring in immigrants you increase both the supply AND demand for workers; you cannot ignore one half of the equation.

Simple thought exercise for you. There were 30 million people in the USA in 1850. Today there are 280 million. Where did all those jobs come from? If more people simply means more people looking for jobs, why isn’t the unemployment rate 95%?

So prove that has something to do with immigration. Prove there’s a negative impact here. Mexico has far less immigration and a far higher unemployment rate, doesn’t it?

Do you have a cite proving this?

The education system is not being “destroyed.” What a silly claim.

See above.

I’m sorry, but where is your evidence that high immigration results in high taxes? Oh, of course, you have none except a few newspaper articles that really don’t prove it, either, and a lot of broken links. Immigrants pay taxes (unless you believe the silly myth that they get a 7-year tax holiday and free furniture or whatever the story is these days.) They produce economic output that increases the tax base.

Yes, there’s just so much secession talk going around.

Pshaw. If you want to fix the environment, fix it. Reducing the population is not a fix; you may delay the inevitable but that’s all. California’s water problems will not be solved by keeping the population at 42 million as opposed to 43 million.

23

Well, I don’t normally bother to consider libertarians, given their highly bounded rationality.

Security concerns of course is an elastic phrase – quite clearly some level of immigration will overwhelm any given society’s capacity to absorb and adapt, which itself will no doubt generate security concerns -whether they are rational or not is another issue of course.

In any case, I believe we can all agree that our dear KKK member’s “economic analysis” is nothing but an emotional squeel of fear, rather than a well-grounded examination of the cost and benefit of immigration, both directly and in re externalities that might arise (as hinted at in RJ’s post, although Nederlands seems to absorb immigrants quite well, and of course declining ‘native’ birthrates in the area rather require immigration if they’re to support their stanard of living in the next 50 years.).

I think it is fair, however, to point out that it is probably true that some forms of immigration probably have a depressing effect on some segments of the labor market’s compensation (supply up, demand… up as much?) - e.g. lower skilled labor. But again, is this offset by higher activity? I suspect in many cases, yes.

Complicated.

24

I second greck’s comments. Our immigration methodoology here needs some serious improvement, but people like the OP do nothing but give those who dare address the problem a bad name, by creating the impression that immigration reform is only desired by evil xenophobic demons.

Fact is, we do need to do something. In California, the number of illegals is ridiculous. I’m of the opinion that open, unregulated borders would be a bad thing. But our current system says, “Only X people can come in per year”, then lets (X + a huge number) come in, and ignores them. Meanwhile, these are people who consume public resources without paying for them via taxes. If we’re not going to bother enforcing our borders, then we should at least make sure that everyone who does come here becomes registered somehow.

Jeff

25

ElJeffe,
being in california i’m assuming that you’re talking about mexican immigrants, if not please enlighten me.
now, the majority of mexican immigrants are young male laborers.
by public resources im guessing you mean, primarily, health care. what else?
because young men don’t really need much in terms of health care,
don’t really need much WIC benefits if you’re male
can’t get into public housing w/o a social security number

keeping part of the labor force exploitable, payable in sub-minimum wage cash jobs is how we keep from having to pay $5.00 for a head of lettuce.
they don’t pay income taxes, but they keep the cost of produce down, keep other unskilled labor cheap.

26

<< Could some kind mod edit the thread title, as it’s making the main Forum page look weird? >>

27

Yes, less muddled ommentary on immigration, as follows:

Subjective, but I’ll allow it.

True, for variety of reasons, but then the border in question is hardly open or unregulated.

Partially true, partly due to an incoherent policy mix, partly to the impossibility of controlling the attraction.

False. Some substantial number of illegal/undocumented immigrants work, pay taxes through variety of means (sales, working with others papers, paying taxes in this manner etc.). Employers of certain types seem rather to avoid certain kinds of taxes, and in fact appear to be shifting costs to the larger society.

[quqote]
If we’re not going to bother enforcing our borders, then we should at least make sure that everyone who does come here becomes registered somehow.

[/QUOTE]

This makes sense. Regularizations with various fees and incentive programs are probably the most honest way to deal with the impossibility of 100% controls.

28

I qualify as a Right-winger. A conservative, even. A fasci- well, nevermind.

And let me tell you of few posts: Shutup, and spend some time reading. There is an incredible pool of free knowledge here. Study how some posters put out clear, cohesive, and well-supported posts. (Some more like essays.) Note that it is not only what they are saying (which you may agree or disagree with), it is how they are saying it. Trust me, my early posts look like yours, and it is a bit embarrassing.
If you have some radical anti-immigrant thoughts, fine. Give proof. Cite sources. Stop the childish spacing of words and colored fonts, and start putting together cohesive and thought-out writings.

29

I guess you’re right. I went back and thoroughly read all 33 links that Kuku posted. Anyone who writes an O.P. that long MUST know what they’re talking about. So I’m off to the border to shoot me some Mexicans.:wink:

30

Well, here’s another one. It’s far from “trivial bullshit” when your so-called “writing style” gives readers the universal impression that you are an illiterate crank.

Firstly, most of the links you posted don’t work, as parts of them contain the same bloody overlong ellipses that you, for some reason, seem to enjoy sprinkling randomly throughout your messages. Ellipsis, usually indicated by three periods (…) is used to indicate when a word or phrase has been left out of a quote, in case you are unclear on that point of grammar.

Secondly, just how much time do you think anyone has to spend going through your mile-long diatribe point by point, anyhow? Who on earth is going to be convinced that you are providing valid data if they have to slog though 5000 poorly structured words, and find that any random ‘fact’ you post turns out to be wrong?

For example: 1/3 of the US prison population is made up of Mexican nationals? Bullshit, I don’t believe it. Prove it; the link that you say backs this claim up doesn’t work.

OTOH, I was just thinking that it had been quite a while since I had seen a really enjoyably deranged, spittle-flying, eye-rolling rant in GD. Thanks for making my day in that way, at least.

31

Nah. Make it easier on yourself and just go to the beach to shoot those wascly Cubans coming in on boats. Besides, this way you can be environmentally friendly and support the shark population off the Florida coast. :smiley:

Zev Steinhardt

32

Barbara Lee was the only person in Congress who voted against giving George W. free reign to bomb Afghanistan. Her district includes most of Oakland, as well as Berkeley, Albany, Alameda, Emeryville, and Piedmont.

A little story: About a year and a half ago, I started spending a lot of time on the internet (avoiding my studies). I ran across a link to a little anti-immigrant message board that had been posted on a lefty site. A bunch of us invaded their racist love fest and the board was temporarily shut down. It reappeared, and the moderators decided to let a few of us non-racists stick around. A few of the members were white supremacists, but most denied being racists while making blatantly racist statements about Mexicans. Very few had any real knowledge, brains, or ability to argue. I got addicted to posting there, even though these people were real racist idiots. (Thank god I discovered the Dope.) Anyway, judging from his sentiments and hthe sites he links, KKK very well could be a member of that group. Can’t we just ban him now before things get out of control?

33

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons website:www.bop.gov/fact0598.htm,
nationwide (I couldn’t find the stats for California alone) the prison population of *hispanics[/] is 31.7%, however Mexicans claiming Mexican citizenship account for 16%. So, whoever Kuku gets his “facts” from probably just lumped them all together.

Regarding the “open talk” about the Southwestern U.S. seceding and becoming “Atzland,” the only place I could find anything about Atzland was at Americanpatrol.org, which included this statement: “It (the U.S.) should reward veterans of American wars not give grants to La Raza,s reconquista de la Atzland.” Beyond that nothing came up on google. Your cite, please Kuk?

Now, I would agree that population increase is a serious environmental issue. How exactly does limiting immigration address this issue? It may keep some people from coming to the U.S., but the environment is global.

As to the “everybody knows” statement about supporting ones own “kind,” I will agree that, when somebody moves to a new country, that person is likely to seek out others from his/her home country, for companionship and a sense of security. “I’m not alone,” if you will. That could also make a person more inclined to support political candidates of the same ethnicity. Not surprising, since people in all groups, whites included do the same thing. Personally I think it would be better if we didn’t feel that way, and could be comfortable anywhere with anybody, but I do understand the feeling of being a stranger and looking for somebody with whom I have something in common.

You mention that the Upper Midwest is becoming more and more Muslim (and Arabic). That’s probably true, if only because even one Muslim moving into an area will increase the percentage if another Muslim doesn’t move away. That’s just addition. As to millions more…cite please. As far as the Midwest not thinking like the rest of America, well, I’ve lived in the Midwest my whole life and it doesn’t seem to have changed that much to me. Of course, I’m a moderate liberal, so my opinion probably doesn’t count. Besides, America doesn’t think. People think and they have a wide spectrum of opinions and ideas. So, in a way America doesn’t think like America, and it never has.

You posted a link in the political correctness thread that lead to the American Nationalist Union, I think it was called. One of their tenets was support of “voluntary segregation.” What the hell is that anyway? If people decide they want to live in a community that’s primarily made up of people of the same ethnicity, isn’t that a form of segregation? It’s certainly voluntary. And isn’t that what you are asserting is happening in the so called “Atzland?” So, which way do you want it? Do you want people living apart, with “their own kind,” or do you want all ethnic groups spread out evenly across the country? Please explain your ideas more clearly.

You were right about one thing, the hour is late. It’s after 5:00. But I won’t be joining you. Ever.

34

Whoa. What the hell did I do? Sorry about all the italics. I left the closer off at the top I guess.

35

greck

[Moderator Hat ON]

greck, in this forum we do not call fellow posters aholes. Or $h!theads. Or PFs. Or A* A*** R***** C********** B****** S*** O* R**** B******.

Thank you.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

36

OK, Kukulkon, as one of these immigrant to America (from England, for the record), I’ll bite.

Fewer Jobs (Not less, by the way): You referred to 20,000,000 Americans without jobs. Tell me, as a naturalized but unemployed citizen, do I count as one? If not, should I return my unemployment checks because I don’t deserve them? By the way, I’m still paying sales taxes, car registration, and having taxes deducted from my unemployement checks.

Crime: Among the four of us who imigrated (my youngest brother doesn’t count – he was born here), the most serious crime any of us have us have committed resulted in a speeding ticket. This is anecdotal, I admit.

More Crime: As a woman, statistically I suspect I’m in much greater danger from U. S. citizens. Playing the wife, daughter, etc. card is a cheap shot and not worth arguing.

Educational Issues: As it happens, I was not eligible for a National Merit Scholarship, despite test scores which were high enough, because I was not a citizen. Therefore, I missed out on scholarship which my peers got, thus increasing my educational costs.

Healthcare: Believe me, I’m not getting a discount on my COBRA benefits because I’m an immigrant. I am paying for psychotherapy at the moment, or rather my insurance company and I are, but one of the reasons I need it is because of the behaviour of people who tried to convince me I was worthless because I was an immigrant, among other reasons.

Higher Taxes: All of us have paid the same tax burden as any American citizen both before and after naturalization. The estates of legal immigrants, by the way, are taxed at a higher rate than U.S. citizens. Since my other brother makes a good living in Massachusetts, I’d say he’s probably paying more taxes than I am at the moment.

Political Reality: Actually the recent run of presidential candidates was one less reason for my parents to become naturalized. My brother and my parents vote Republican; I vote independent, meaning whichever party looks best. This usually means the Libertarians.

Environmental Destruction: My sister-in-law is one of 11 children all born in the US. I would hardly say my own family of 5 did more damage than her family of 13.

Your posting style: Quite frankly, it comes across as difficult to read and confusing, not to mention rife with spelling and grammatical errors. I suspect people would argue the substance more if they could work out what it was.

The IQ and political views of people on this message board: We’ve got a pretty broad spectrum of politics on this board with people at the fringes of both ends. In terms of I.Q., I’ve had the privilege of hanging out with Mensans for the past two years (people with I.Q.'s in the top 2% or roughly over 130 or 140 on an I.Q. test), and I’d say the people on this board are, for the most part, of that caliber or higher.

So, how much does your family contribute to the good of the United States?

CJ

37

You would be correct.

In addition to the obvious benefits, like health care, I was referring to some of the more subtle things. Drinking from the public water supply, or peeing in a government restroom, or driving on a public road. All these things consume resources that are replenished through taxpayer’s money. Admittedly, these things are small, but there’s an element of principle. You don’t justify stealing a $20 from Bill Gates by appealing to his great wealth.

Er… you refer to my post as muddled “ommentary”, then proceed to agree with every point I make? Is this some definition of “muddled” with which I’m not familiar, or did you just have a sudden urge to be rude? Tourette’s acting up again, perhaps? :wink:

Jeff

38

I’ve removed some of the periods from some of the posts – just call me Mr. Menopause. So now the thread looks OK to me. I’m not inclined to remove all of them, because it would take time better used elsewhere (like scraping grout or something). But my monitor is pretty hi-res – if there are one or more post still making the screen side-scroll, let me know and I’ll take care of them, too.

39

It looks a lot better to me, and I side-scroll at the drop of a hat. Now if only you could do something about the content! [sigh]

Thanks!
CJ

40

Right. Thus bullshit, as I said. I would expect that most of his/her/it’s facts are equally reliable.

That’s because our esteemed colleague obviously has has little or no acquaintence with the social history of the US southwest. The word is “Aztlan”.

Here’s a link explaining its etymology and relevance, if any, to the debate:

http://www.azteca.net/aztec/aztlan.html