What's the True Cost of Mass Immigration?

Great Debates
61

Kukulkon, I took on your posts, point by point, with substantive replies, but you somehow seem to have overlooked it. Would you like to try again, or are my thoughts to be discounted because I’m an immigrant?

Since this was your first point and you brought it up again today, let me repeat myself. I’m an unemployed immigrant who is a naturalized citizen. I’m included in the government’s statistics of those who are unemployed. In your opinion, should I be counted among those who are unemployed or am I someone who, when employed, is taking jobs away from Americans? For the record, I immigrated to this country with my family when I was 2 1/2 years old.

I’m particularly interested in seeing your reply to my entire post.

CJ

62

Eva Luna:

You make a good point. Is it possible that those who have fake paperwork are more likely to be caught, though? That would tend to bias your observations towards the appearance of more immigrants having false paperwork than there really are.

Apos:

Umm… there’s a substantial difference, if it’s the type of tax cut that I would be in favor of. I suppose there would be no difference if the sole purpose of the tax cut was to make all poor people not have to pay any taxes, but I wouldn’t agree with something like that.

Apos:

Sorry, but your reasoning there is faulty. By your logic, we should not pursue people who commit tax evasion, because that would be like a tax increase.

Apos:

Yeah, well, don’t get me started on our progressive tax system. :slight_smile:

Kukulkon:

Just for the record, I’m a raging Republican, and I think you’re full of it, as well.
Jeff

63

Gah!!! I am BLIND!!! the colors!!!

And “…” to you, “sir”

CITE??? You 404 lovin’ File Not Founder!

Good advice. Try following it.

As opposed to your sample size of zero? Or do you have an actual cite and not a “page not found” error

“homie”??? Obviously, Gaylord Nelson is the stupidest person on the planet. He needs to put down the peace pipe and look outside his window and see all the open space. Then he can use this thing called logic to determine that people can go there. we only have 275 million people, we got plenty of room. if we had 1.3 billion, then he’d have something to complain about.

Yes, English first!! All those filthy Pig-Latin speakers need to dig like the greasy dogs they are!!

Yes, no white people are left in California, heck, here in San Fran, it is 100% Illegal Mexican Immigrants, especially in Chinatown! After all, look how low California’s population has dipped. it is down to three!! INS better just swept through and depopulate the entire state.

wait for it… Cite???

So all those other people i see on the bus are figments of my imagination? even when the bus is so full i have to stand on the loading steps while the bus is moving? because there is no interest in mass transit? facinating…

No, it is housing developers fault for building super expensive houses far away from the city centers, americans fault for buying those houses, the city planners faults for zoning residential and not doing urban renewal. Granted, you wouldn’t know Ecology if a zebra mussel bit you on your behind.

Just look at what that popular support has done…uh,…wow. Too impressed for words i am…

Statistics can be used to prove anything. 63% of people know that… (you got a cite, buddy boy? Homie? Skippy? KKK? Rodrigo? Tex Mex? Of course you don’t…)

“Just means more women to turn me down for dates!!”
Yea…with debate skills like this I can see that.
[/quote]
Yes, you showed me. I am building a cross to burn on my neighbors yard this instant. They look mexican, so the must be superrich burger king eating MASS ILLIGALS!!!

Tars has not yet begun to rant…

64

Cite

65

Just FYI, in case anybody else cares, here is the correct link for the Gaylord Nelson interview, which Kulkulkon has quoted twice now, and which originally appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on April 22, 2001.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/apr01/five22s1042101a.asp

66

Sure, it’s possible. I never worked on the investigations/enforcement end of the deportation process (thank God; it’s INS’ awful job, but I suppose somebody has to do it!), so I didn’t generally find out how individuals in deportation proceedings came to INS’ attention, except in cases where it was inherent in the charging document, as in when someone (and this happens both to legal and to illegal immigrants) is being deported for a criminal conviction.

It can happen all sorts of ways: workplace raids, being caught in flagrante delicto sneaking over the border, traffic stops, having an asylum application or other INS application denied and having INS notice that you’re out of legal immigration status since your tourist visa expired five years ago, anonymous tips from the angry ex-girlfriend: you get the picture. INS doesn’t tend to do a lot of workplace raids on small businesses in general, and I imagine the proportions of people who are caught in various ways will vary along regional lines. I’ve never seen any statistics on the subject, though.

In any case, even undocumented immigrants who don’t show false papers to get a job still pay taxes, whether they’re working under the table or not. Basically everyone in this country pays sales taxes, and as for needing papers to get a job, you’d be amazed how many employers either ignore or are unaware of INS compliance regulations. Remember the little Form I-9 you probably had to fill out when you started your job, where they ask for either one document from List A or one each from List B and List C? Well, years ago I worked for a small translation agency, and when I asked the owner why I hadn’t had to fill one out, he said, “Well, I only hire U.S. citizens.” I asked him how they knew they were U.S. citizens if he didn’t ask them for any proof, and the most quizzical look crossed his face, and he shut up after that. I told him he could theoretically be fined thousands of dollars for each violation, and he said, “But we’ve never been audited by the IRS.” “Of course,” I said, “this has nothing to do with your taxes!”

And this was an educated, literate guy who had run a business for 15 years and had hired dozens of people! Plus, he didn’t know it, but he was also committing an immigration violation by refusing to hire non-U.S. citizens.

67

(Sigh)

Firstly, Kuku, the person who throws up the most words does not win the debate.

The specific point I was responding to, made by you, was: “1/3 of California’s prison population is made up of Mexican Nationals”. Neither you nor any respondents so far have provided data to back up that assertion. Until you do, I continue to say “bullshit”.

Even if we limit the debate to the quote concerning “1/3 of prison beds have immigratns sleeping in them”, you are still spouting bullshit. Since nearly 100% of this country’s population is made up of immigrants (that is, persons whose ancestors emigrated from other countries), I can justifiably argue that nearly 100% of our prison population is made up of immigrants.

Oh, did you mean illegal, Hispanic immigrants? Well, you didn’t say that. The link that Photopat posted doesn’t say that either. So, bullshit.

Personally, I consider it an important sign of intelligence to be able to spell, well, “Intelligence”, but hey, that’s just me. In any event, I have not referred to other posters here, without justification, as possessing “80I.Q.”, nor have I gloated in all caps, multicolored type and several exclamation points about how smart I am and how stupid all my respondents are. If anyone is being childish, sir, it is you.

Several posters have pointed out numerous errors of fact in your OP, but for some reason you have not seen fit to respond to them. In particular, DuckDuckGoose, who obviously has considerably more patience with jerks than I do, went to the bother of going through your mostly useless, broken links and formulated a point-by-point rebuttal. I note with interest that you haven’t replied to any of the points DDG raised. Do you want to debate the issues you raised or not? If so, please reply to DDG’s post, as I have nothing further to say to you in this thread.

68

Having absolutely nothing better to do (cleaned the refrigerator coils with toothbrush–check, clipped dog’s toenails–check, made list of all important papers and filed same in new banker’s boxes–check), I decided to go look for the “1 out of 3 jail beds have immigrants sleeping in them!” factoid, by Googling “california prisons percentage hispanic”.

And, actually, I found it. Sort of.

http://latino.sscnet.ucla.edu/challenge/41.htm

So if you’re an uncritical reader, this seems to say “1 out of 3 jail beds have Hispanic immigrants sleeping in them!”

However, it’s clear from the rest of the article that they’re talking about Mexican-Americans, a.k.a. “Latinos”, not immigrants, and that they’re talking about Latinos in Southern California, where Hispanics already make up a large percentage of the population, so it’s not surprising that they make up a large percentage of the arrests and incarcerations.

Here are some actual numbers from 1999, which prove that, across the entire United States, the factoid “1 out of 3 jail beds have [Hispanic] immigrants sleeping in them!” is actually not true.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/pjim99.txt

Wanna see it again?
[ul]
[li]Whites, 41.3%[/li][li]Blacks, 41.5%[/li][li]Hispanics, 15.5%[/li]Other, 1.7%[/ul]

69

Kulkokon, please answer the following:

What would be the purpose of thinking if the possibility that your mind could change was not present?

What proof can you offer that you are right and others are wrong? Clearly there are others that feel as furvently as you with the opposing opinion.

And finally, why start a discussion on something that a) wont change other peoples minds and b) your opinion clearly will not change?

Please back up with factual argument and do not cloud your reasoning with fallacies. My mind is not made up on the topic - so coherent analysis with proper factual grounding would be appreciated, as opposed to mindless flaming.

70

Has anybody noticed how simililar the name “kukulkon” is to another name, of an organization, that also contains three k’s? Coincidence?

71

Coincidence? Yeah, that would be my guess.

The pyramid at Chichen Itza is named after a Mayan god, “Kukulkan”.

“Kukulkan” is also evidently a character (?) from the old Star Trek animated series.
http://66.113.217.85/AnimatedSeries/KukulkanShip_x.html

72

Why does he call everybody “homie”?

Does he think we’ll believe he’s black?
Does he believe he’s black?
Does he believe we’re all black?
Is he black, but with “issues”? :eek:
Does he think he’s an extra on “In Living Color?”
And, What About Naomi? :smiley:

73

“Homie”, “homies”, and “homes” is a common form of address among white teenage males, according to my own personal observations of my own personal White Teenage Male, as he interacts with his “posse”.

74

Well it seems that a few of the kids are still up and out of bed so let me deal with them first…then well have adult time…O.K?
…Tars our “Biologist” friend just keeps looking for issues (thats he wrong on!).

"CITE[Article about ILLEGALS getting you to pay for their university education]??? You 404 lovin’ File Not Founder! "

No problem:
[" a Denver Post August 11 front page sob story urging that he get in-state university tuition"

“Jesus Apodaca is in the U.S. illegally. He and the other Apodacas illegally in the U.S. are entitled to nothing. Some of the illegal young Apodacas have already benefited from taxpayer funded K-12 education.”

“No doubt they’ll be studying at the expense of Colorado taxpayers soon.”]

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm

…Next Tars demands proof that Immigration is destroying the Educational system.

" Or do you have an actual cite and not a “page not found” error "

No problem senor…(I must say on this though that you sure dont keep up on current events very well do you? I mean this issue has been the subject of much media for over 15 years…and you live in California?(do you ever read?)

I mean…wake up Mr. California!!!

“A moratorium on immigration to the Federal level would be a request I would push whole-heartedly…Don’t leave California. Stay with me. I promise to get our state back. I remember those days you talk about, and I miss them too…With ‘English Only’ as the language of our land, teachers would more aggressively teach our children to comprehend and success in the stimulation of the mind with math, and develop more freely reading and writing skills…Illegal immigrants are “ILLEGAL”. Breaking our laws in this way, is corrected with deportation immediately”

Do you even know whos running for state office in California Tars???

http://www.leavingcal.com/edie_bukewihge.html

"Then, there is immigration. The Clinton administration did little more than watch a literal invasion by illegal immigrants flowing daily across pervious borders. The epicenter of the invasion is California. To the extent that California presages what will eventually happen across the nation, it is time to send a signal: “America, we have a problem!”

If you live in Idaho, you might ask, “What is the problem? Wasn’t America founded by immigrants? Isn’t immigration a good thing?” The answer is that America has carefully defined a legal way for immigrants to enter the country. The policy is generous and inclusive. Managed immigration is considered a good thing.

However, the recently conducted census informs us that the number of illegal aliens in the United States is between 10 and 12 million, significantly higher than previously estimated. It is now believed that between 4 and 5 million of them are in California."

“The level of immigration is so massive, it’s choking the urban schools…It’s bad enough when you have desperate kids with U.S. backgrounds who require massive resources. In come kids with totally different needs, and it creates crushing burdens on urban schools.
David W. Stewart, author Immigration and Education: The Crisis and the Opportunities”

““Something will have to give,” says political scientist Jay Bernstein, a former Cal State professor. “Either taxes will have to rise or spending priorities must change or many thousands of students will soon find themselves outside the college campuses they’ve long anticipated they would almost automatically attend.”
Washington Times, “Campuses brace for student avalanche,” December 26, 1997.”

"IMMIGRANTS ARE OVERWHELMING SCHOOL SYSTEMS
Schools are already overcrowded; there are six million more children in school now than 10 years ago. By 2002, the school population will grow from 49 million to 55 million–because of immigration.

Without school-age immigrants (about 250,000 a year) and the children of immigrants (about 725,000 a year), school enrollment would not be rising at all. For example, in Miami in 1995, foreign students streamed into the public school system at a rate of 120 a day. In 1995, New York City had to create a special high school in Queens just for the children of immigrants. In San Francisco, where one in every three public school student is in a “limited English” program, a separate Newcomer High School has been created for immigrants. Nationwide, the number of students with limited English has doubled to 3.5 million, according to the U.S. Department of Education."

http://www.fairus.org/html/04126611.htm

Now that we cleared all that up for you…Tars. Lets move on to your next fantastic quote:
"Obviously, Gaylord Nelson is the stupidest person on the planet. He needs to put down the peace pipe and look outside his window and see all the open space. "

Yea…ahhh…“obviuously”!!! I guess when you get your PHD in Science…Become a Senator…start your own Enviromental organisation…and awarded the title of "the most important American Enviromentalist since John you’ll be almost as smart as he is…ehhh Tars???

BTW…I guess ALL of the President’s Commission on Population Growth and America’s Future urged Congress to act with alacrity to stabilize the population of 200 million. They must also be “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet”???

BTWW…I guess that Ecologists such as Paul and Anne Ehrlich of Stanford University peg 150 million as the maximum level consonant with long-term habitat preservation." They must also…ALSO…be obviously the the stupidest person on the planet"?..Right Mr. “”"“Biologist”"""??

…here are some more Scientists and leaders working to wake up people like you in California (i know they have a ton of work to do!)…ALL of these people are also “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet” :

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/

http://ccir.net/

http://www.susps.org/

IMHO…you should get informed on this subject before you return to “debate”…I am shocked by your lack of knowledge on this issue…I mean you live in California for gods sake, its been a big issue there for about 25 years Sir…moreover Im sad to see a “”“Biologist” who cant seem to understand that:

" the ability of an ecosystem to support a given number of humans( or any organism for that matter) IS NOT limited simply by the “open space” in that system…Mr. Biologist…there are a huge host of factors that define the carrying capacity…and any real scientists would know that…Mr. “”“Biologist”"""!

When you get informed, you can run with the big dogs…until then go to bed! :slight_smile:

moving on:

El_Kabong
"Even if we limit the debate to the quote concerning “1/3 of prison beds have immigratns sleeping in them”, you are still spouting bullshit. Since nearly 100% of this country’s population is made up of immigrants (that is, persons whose ancestors emigrated from other countries), I can justifiably argue that nearly 100% of our prison population is made up of immigrants. "

Serpent talk like this Sir only makes you look silly! everyone knows were NOT talking about some Jewish dude whos family came here in 1880! O.K.???

Immigrants are people who have come to this nation from other nations and their small children…Sir…I mean why play all these stupid word games?

You are WRONG sir…Government stats show that about 1/3 of all beds in our jail system have an Immigrant sleeping in them!

In California:
“Hispanics made up slightly over 30% of new felon admissions to the California Department of Corrections and accounted for 28.2% of the total prison population. Since 1983 about 30% of wards committed for the first time to the California Youth Authority have been Hispanic. (In 1988 slightly more than 33% of the 8,954 wards are Hispanic.)”

"acording to the Federal Bureau of Prisons website:www.bop.gov/fact0598.htm,
nationwide (I couldn’t find the stats for California alone) the prison population of hispanics[/] is 31.7%, however Mexicans claiming Mexican citizenship account for 16%. So, whoever Kuku gets his “facts” from probably just lumped them all together. "

…You stand corrected! (no need to say sorry I understand the truth is very shocking to learn!) (thats why im here!) :slight_smile:

BTW…Folks:
“Here are some actual numbers from 1999, which prove that, across the entire United States, the factoid “1 out of 3 jail beds have [Hispanic] immigrants sleeping in them!” is actually not true.”

[COLOR=red] I never said that “across the entire US”…any fool would know that at other locations in the US the country of Origin for Immigrants would be different than in Mexican broder states…I mean will you people stop play all these silly word games???

…the FACT is that about ~1/3 of ALL beds in the US system have an Immigrant (…I…E…a national from outside the US) sleeping in them…CASE CLOSED!!!

…now that the kids are all back in Bed, lets have some Adult time…shall we?

First of all: this persons story is exactly what Im talking about people…WHY are we allowing millions of new workers to flood this nation when we already have Millions of NEW Americans rigth here who cant find good JOBS??

cjhoworth

"'m an unemployed immigrant who is a naturalized citizen. I’m included in the government’s statistics of those who are unemployed. In your opinion, should I be counted among those who are unemployed or am I someone who, when employed, is taking jobs away from Americans? For the record, I immigrated to this country with my family when I was 2 1/2 years old.

I’m particularly interested in seeing your reply to my entire post. "

Sir/Miss…First of all Im sorry to here about you situation, our economy is in really bad shapeand I know its tough for folks out there…I hope you find a good Job soon!

Now…if you came from another nation, you are an Immigrant (although you did come here at a young age)…So for the government stats I think they would consider you to be an Immigrant…but a Citizen. By taking a Job in this nation you are an American…not an Illegal though!

Contrary to all the B.S. being said here about ME…and about Immigration reform…the Truth of the matter is that Immigration reform seeks to HELP REAL AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS!!! By protecting Jobs (that Ilegals would take)…by protecting WAGES (that would be lower without it!)…By protecting Governemt services (that many legal Immigratns need!). My "friends here would rather you (and your fellow new americans) be forced into a Dog eat Dog economy where Illegal criminals steal YOUR JOBS…TAKE YOUR SERVICES…USE YOUR HEALTHCARE…LOWER YOUR WAGES…AND DESTROY YOUR CHILDRENS SCHOOLS!

Immigration reformers want the Govenment to stop the ILLEGALS…slow the flood of LEGALS…and start to focus on the ~40,000,000 NEW AMericans we have taken in over the last ~30 years!!!

…Immigration Reform is all about taking this nation BACK from the Corporate Whores (who want to pimp this nation out)…the Bleeding heart liberals (who dont understand that we cant take in ALL the BILLIONS of people who want to come here)…and the “reconquistas” whos real motive for this flood of Mass Immigration is to destroy this nation for their own selfish desires!

…AND to focus our Government TAX money and services on people JUST LIKE YOU!!! (I mean why is should we bring in millions more immigrants when we already have Millions of NEW AEMRICANS right here who cant find work…or take part in the American system???

you may want to check out:

[Diversity Alliance for a Sustainable America]

http://www.diversityalliance.org/

…Sir/Miss you seem like a nice person, (much better than most of these rude folks Im found here!) I hope you find work, and a great life here in OUR fantastic nation!!!

…and I hope youll consider getting involved in this fight, its your nation …and it needsyour help!
Pythagoras:

{Kulkokon, please answer the following:

What would be the purpose of thinking if the possibility that your mind could change was not present?
I agree with you! I always try to keep an open mind about things…althoug some things are in fact Wrong…and some things Right…IMHO

What proof can you offer that you are right and others are wrong? Clearly there are others that feel as furvently as you with the opposing opinion.
To me its simple…You either think that America is a great nation or you dont…If you think that America is great, then its worth protecting, and since getting control of our Borders and Immigration is integral to :

  1. having a nation
  2. Having the rule of Law
  3. stopping the destruction of our Environment
  4. keeping our standard of living
  5. protecting Americans Jobs
  6. Not allowing our Wages to fall to third world levels
  7. Keeping our Healthcare system above water.
  8. keeping Criminals in Jail, not running free for lack of beds.
  9. Stopping the destruction of our Educational system, and having the time and money to give Real America children(of every race and creed) a REAL EDUCATION!
  10. Ensuring that the ~40,000,000 New Americans we have imported over the last ~30 years get a place at the REAL American dinner table…and get the chance to be part of the American system…not left out in the cold for lack of funds and services!!!
  11. Ending the easy flood of Drugs that flows over our “borders” every single day…these Cheap Drugs are killing our kids!!!
    12)PRotecting this nation from Terrorists who seek to Kill our people!!

…I could go on and on here but:

how can we have a nation with wide open borders?

how can we have a “war on drugs”…with wide open borders?

how can we fight a “war on terror”…with wide open borders?

…etc…etc.

And finally, why start a discussion on something that a) wont change other peoples minds and b) your opinion clearly will not change?

[COLOR=blue] I dont have to “change” anyones minds…Poll after Poll (over the last ~20 years) has shown that the vast majority of Americans (of all races and creeds) reject ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION (~85% Zogby Poll in Sept.)…moreover a Full (~75% Zogby Poll Sept.) Want to reduce LEGAL Immigration!!!

…I just need to join forces with those people and work to force the corporate whores who are keeping the flood gates open to stand down…and let the American people have their nation back!

…this has been a long post, so ill go now…BUT I will return with more Links…more information for all of you in ~75% block out there…so that we can stop our great nation from becoming a Third world hell!!!

Our Children will curse our names if we dont!
peace!

Kukulkon

BTW…I think that this guys commnets about sum up the guts of the “debate” of the other 25% Block!!!

["Manduck

Has anybody noticed how simililar the name “kukulkon” is to another name, of an organization, that also contains three k’s? Coincidence?"]

… This is the level of Intelligence Im up against here!!! (Political correctness=stupidity!)

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

75

I guess our jails wouldn’t be so full of immigrants if we stopped rounding them up and putting them there.

76

I’m awake. But after reading this, I think I’ll go back to bed.

Nighty-night.

77

Which would cost more - sealing up our borders with troops/law enforcement/whatever or allowing immigrants to come in?

Nobody has addressed this issue-

"Im curious to what degree this assertion is correct:

“Illegal Immigrants take jobs that U.S. citizens would not.”

That is, are the jobs they are taking really desired by Americans? Are there honestly Americans losing their jobs to illegal immigrants? Or do illegal immigrant’s jobs constitute things that Americans wouldnt be caught dead doing?"

78

That argument is very powerful with respect to certain kinds of immigration.

Immigration from the Far East costs roughly $30,000 per person, and is nearly always done illegally. This creates a black market for immigration firmns which require indentured slavery on the part of the immigrant once he/she arrives in the US. This period of low-wage servitude lasts about two years.

If nearly unlimited immigration from the Far East were permitted, it would become much easier and more cost-effective for people to emigrate to the United States. This would diminish the black market immigration firms’ incentives for financing costly emigration, and it would still permit the same levels of wealthier, skilled immigrants. If immigration cost only, say, $5,000 per person and working were legal on the other side, black market firms would be closed out of their own market, and poorest marginal immigrants would not have the money to emigrate.

If there weren’t so much red tape for immigrants to obtain working rights in the US, the market for indentured immigrant slavery on pain of deportation would evaporate.

So we’d probably end up with fewer poor immigrants and less regulation.

79

Hmmm… should i trust a website that says…

Yes, this website wants to strip you of your right to be a citizen here even if you are born here.

Well, DUH i demand proof. You DIDN’T give any!! DUH!!!

Yes, after living here 6 months, i gain 15 years of media experience. Or maybe it is not as big a deal as you think (at least here in Nor-Cal)

from the website

Obviously the voters agree with her stance. :smack: (and don’t try to blame the illegals, since they can’t freakin’ vote!)

I am aware of Linda Bowles blatherings from Worldnetdaily.com. I hope you support her condemnation of Unconditional love for your children: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26331

[clor=red]Moving on[/color]…

Hmmmmm… Hire spanish speaking teachers? Use taxpayer money effectively? Don’t let moron governor of the term cut education funding? Nah… Lets just demonize the greasers…

Maybe the lazy bum kids should study. If they are too stupid to get into college, Fuck 'em. It is not my problem that they are lazy and stupid.

Yes, there is zero population growth except for immigration. except there isn’t http://fox.rollins.edu/~jsiry/USpop90s.html Seems to be an extra 1.6 million people that shouldn’t exist. Must be more of my imagination (probably the same people who ride the bus that don’t exist)

Ha! You are a funny guy!!

Most important environmentalist since John? John from the bible? Wow! maybe i should start my own enviromental organization, it will clean up the trash cluttering message boards…

Yes, since they are not keeping up with technology and biotechnology that is increaing the carrying capacity of the planet.

Well, your people can’t even pick a constant number. I delcare 400,000,000 will be fine for this country. No, wait, 500,000,000!No, wait, 65,000!!! The reali ideal population is Zero, but that would exclude natural citizens like you (color=red]YOU GOT PROOF YOU ARE LEGAL, BUDDY???[/color])

Yes, California, full of wackyness. This moring on the bus i had to listen to some guy going on about Bush being the Antichrist because he was doing all these supercomplicated secret plans. But i guess he is just trying to “Wake up, California!!”

25 years? I’ve not even been alive that long. :Wally:

If you want to get into a debate on carrying capacity, revive one of the old threads or start a new one. needless to say, 275 million is no where near the limit of this country, especially with technology increasing food yeild, new techniques of water treatment (both in development and current), and most of the urban areas having large sections of unused buildings.

Hmmmm… a chihuahua telling me that i can’t run with the big dogs. Yo quiero Taco Bell, eh? No, wait, that is ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT food!!!

Yes, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who just crossed the board have degrees in physics, computer science, geology, have graduated from law school, and have psychology masters, and are stealing jobs. Either that, or they are working in factories glueing carpet fibers and doing other jobs americans wouldn’t do.

If you think that America is great, then its worth protecting, and since getting control of our Borders and Immigration is integral to :

  1. having a nation
  2. Having the rule of Law
  3. stopping the destruction of our Environment
    [/quote]

BZZZTT!!! Wrong, Logging has nothing to do with immigration. Oil drilling has nothing to do with immigration. Corruption of government officials and corporate land raping ahve nothing to do with immigrantion. but keep living in your fantasy world.

The logic is mind boggeling. Spock weeps.

Healthcare is already ruined.

Build more prisons. set up social programs that give incentives to doing something with your life and not resorting to crime. (or kill all them crime doing immigrants!!! All they do is breed and rape!!)

Could be fixed if there were competent people in the Dept of Education. Which is again not the immigrants fault, as they don’t appoint officials (except in your sick twisted world)

Ah, so if we don’t advocate sweeping immigration reform, we are really Taliban agents now?

Yes, way above your head. It is too bad that Universities are letting anyone in nowadays with money a chance to use the computers…
Too bad there wasn’t enough illegals to keep you out of school…

Wake up, little Suzie, Wake up!

80

Rick…is real simple Sir We have ~20,000,000 who cant get JOBS…and…~15,000,000 ILLEGALS WHO HAVE JOBS IN THE USA…got it?
[/QUOTE]

What you don’t understand is that adding people to a country does not necessarily reduce the number of jobs available.

Let me try to explain this as simply as possible, using an example. There are 280 million people in the United States. There are 85 million people in Germany. Therefore, there are more people looking for jobs in the USA, right? So why is the unemployment rate higher in Germany? If having more people means more unemployment, how is it possible that so many more people in the USA have jobs?

If you add 1 millionm people to the United States, you add not only the DEMAND for jobs, but also the SUPPLY of jobs, because more people = more demand for products and services = more jobs. If that WASN’T true, then the unemployment rate in the Unied States would be at least 98%. But it isn’t, it’s more like 7%, which suggests that jobs are created when the population increases. You cannot get around that simple fact, though of course, you didn’t respond to it.

The immigrants, dummy. They pay taxes, ya know. Yes, immigrants pay taxes, roughly proportional to their income, just like everyone else.

And you’ve provided no EVIDENCE. You made the claim, so it’s your job to back it up. Claiming “immigrants cost the taxpayer money!” isn’t evidence. Back it up with real facts. And explain how immigrants don’t pay tax while you’re at it.

Yes, I do know what’s going on. Aren’t you a bit embarassed a Canadian knows more about your country than you do?

Look, it doesn’t matter if I’m Canadian, Belgian, American, Chinese or Martian. What I am saying is true. There is NO serious secession movement in the United States. There is no secessionist party with any significant support or any hope of ever winning an election. The support for secession from the Union is not in double digits in any state. There is nothing there.

QUOTE]BTW…Rick…been to Quebec any time in the last 10 or 20 years my friend…cause I have, and the “talks” sure going around!!!
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And guess who supports secession in Quebec, bonehead? The people who have been there for FOUR HUNDRED YEARS. It’s the immigrants in Quebec that oppose secession. In fact, the separatists in Quebec DESPISE immigrants because they’re too loyal to Canada for the separatists’ liking.

And this makes “Dr. Gaylord” an expert in immigration how, exactly?

So what are Dr. Gaylord’s facts? Who has suggested the USA take in every single person who wants to come?

Then we’d dead, and I’m right; immigration’s irrelevant. If conservation literally cannot work, the environment is doomed no matter what, since logically we will use up every possible resource.

Ehrlich is a discredited crank. His predictions have all turned out to be wrong; you may as well cite Big Bird as a reliable source. Ehrlich actually said the following things would happen:

  • That the world population would top out at 3.5 billion (wrong)
  • England would cease to exist by the year 2000 (wrong)
  • The world could not produce enough food to sustain the human population (wrong)
  • The long term price of most resources would increase (wrong)
  • Worldwide famines and starvation of billions by 1990 (wrong)
  • 65 million Americans dead of famine by 1990 (wrong)
  • The U.S. would be destroyed by a nuclear attack before 2000 (wrong)
  • Food riots in the USA resulting in dissolution of government (wrong)

Ehrlich’s a laughable fool who’s made millions of dollars fooling bigger fools than himself by selling hysteria.