No, puppies have to come from somewhere. They are not magically created at the shelter.
Someone somewhere has to breed dogs, or there would be no dogs. You are saying only irresponsible people should have the right to breed their dog.
What health tests did you perform? How long after their adoption did you guarantee the health of the puppies?
Well as it happens my dad is a vet, so that wasn’t an issue. Even if he wasn’t, we took them to practicing vet to get their jabs, who of course did a check-up.
We never had any health problems (we kept in touch with almost everyone we sold puppies to) but if we had, they have got more support than I got when I adopted my dog (she was an amazing dog but had all sorts of health problems after adoption).
So you didn’t really do any health-testing, is that what you’re saying? And you didn’t provide a health guarantee?
If you’re breeding “theoretically pedigree” animals, there’s a not-insignificant probability that they’re going to inherit problems – problems, I might add, that don’t always appear in the parents and can take years to reveal themselves in the puppies, which is why even the most careful professional breeders offer a health guarantee on all their animals.
A general inspection by a veterinarian isn’t going to reveal anything, really. For example, with Boxer puppies, the breed with which I’m most familiar, you need to administer four or five very specific, very extensive tests to ensure that they’re free of certain genetic issues. A vet almost certainly won’t be able to detect Premature Ventricular Contractions (PVCs) in a general health check-up. The animal needs to be strapped into a Holter monitor for 24-hours for that. A Doppler Echocardiogram is needed to detect abnormal flow velocities in the heart, which, again, won’t be performed by a veterinarian if you’re only taking the animal in for a general check-up. In Boxers especially, you need to administer several tests to check for hip dysplasia. You need to perform eye tests and thyroid tests. Even with all these tests, a professional breeder will warn you that there’s still a potential that issues can crop up in the future, and they make sure you’re prepared both to handle and to recognize them.
At which point it gets into whole debate over whether certain breeds should continue to stick to the pedigree standards they current insist on. As they are clearly perpetuating genetic defects.
But thats a whole separate issue. And of course adoption agencies do none of those things, its up to you to deal with the health issues your dog ends up with.
Not to be a dick but if we have a breed that we recognize is such a walking genetic time bomb wouldn’t it be more responsible to not breed this type of dog? By the sounds of it you are going to cull an imho unacceptable number of puppies or spend a lot of money on damaged dogs.
No, most of them aren’t perpetuating genetic defects. That’s the whole point of the tests. If a puppy or breed animal is revealed to have any genetic issues, most responsible breeders remove them from the list of potential studs or bitches. Like I said, administering these tests ensures 1) that you’re not selling puppies that are going to die young and live shitty lives and 2) that the animals with which you’re breeding are free (or free as near as you can tell through testing) of genetic issues.
Don’t confuse breed problems (like shortened and malformed muzzles on Boxers and other brachycephalic dogs) with genetic issues like PVCs. Some* unethical* professional breeders perpetuate the former, and no breeders, with the exception of backyard breeders, perpetuate the latter.
No, read above.
There are too many people in the world. So you shouldn’t have kids. Easy to understand?
A little harder to understand is that you are being far too superficial in that general statement.
Umm I just did…
I would strongly argue that something is SERIOUSLY awry if performing one the most basic of operations undertaken by post-hunter-gather society, breeding a domestic animal. Requires a 24-hour ECG and and a Doppler Echocardiogram. And that has nothing to do with private individuals being allowed to breed their dogs.
Getting off course I guess but I think that some breeders like use testing to obtain moral high ground. Then they can blame BYB for the dogs health problems. BYB aren’t the ones that bred GSD’s to have a freakish downhill sloping back. They also didn’t create dogs such as Bulldogs that are genetic freaks that will have health issues no matter what testing we do.
I was responding to** Miltonyz**. That’s why “No, read above” appears beneath his response and not yours.
That’s not a good argument.
Extensive genetic testing isn’t limited to dogs. It’s done even more thoroughly with horses; it’s done with cattle; it’s done with alpaca and sheep and almost every other domesticated animal that’s going to be used to breed. Just because we’ve started to test our animals for genetic issues doesn’t mean that animals in the past were free from genetic problems.
I’m not too worried about there not being enough puppies. MILLIONS are being killed every year, if we suddenly get to the point where puppies start being in limited supply, then people can deal with that issue. But considering it has NEVER happened, I’m not too worried about that eventuality.
I’ve never heard of anything like you describe with anything, except other domestic species which have strict pedigree standards, and so have the same problems you see in boxers and the like. A 24 ECG is a very non-trivial procedure (I’ve had to have one of those), my mind boggles at the idea I’d have to administer one of those to a dog period, let alone as a routine measure because it was so in bred.
And again we never had ANY health problems, in all our puppies. But they were either total mongrels or in the case of our 50% pedigree Welsh Springer Spaniels, their pedigree side was working strain (rather than “show”). Which I believe have much fewer health issues.
So you are just saying ONLY irresponsible people have the right to breed puppies, and hence decide the gene pool of dog population as a whole.
You know what? Let me say it like this:
If you live in an area where there are no available puppies at the shelter, and the dogs are all un-adoptable for some reason, and you have a VERY healthy pair of dogs with EXCELLENT temperament, and you do reasonable medical testing, and you only sell the puppies to buyers you have thoroughly vetted, and you commit yourself to caring for every one of the puppies you create, for all their lives*, then yes, go ahead and breed your dog. If you cannot meet the conditions above, I really think you need to ask yourself why the world needs the puppies you are creating. What hole are they filling? Can you answer that for me? Because you seem so certain that your family was responsible in their breeding, even though you did very little of the above, and I just want to know, why?
Instead all I hear is breed bashing and run arounds, which is not the subject of this debate. If you want to have those discussions, open another thread. There is plenty to be said on the subject, and you aren’t the first person who met a couple “pedigreed” dogs and decided the whole thing is a scam.
There are reasons to breed your dog. If your dog is THE BEST at what they do, then that is a good reason. If you live in the country, and you have a couple dogs that are the most awesome sheep herders you ever saw (and you’ve seen a lot of sheep herding dogs!), then breed away! If you are trying to create the most awesome agility breed and you have some dogs that you feel really certain will produce AMAZING agility pups, based on your extensive experience, go for it! But if you have a couple average dogs, even if they are sweet and cute, ask yourself, what hole in the dog world are you filling with these puppies?
Here are a couple posts from an awesome breeder, who says all this much better than I do:
Why NOT to breed your dog
*in other words, perform EXACTLY as a responsible breeder should, minus the pedigree (which is only a miniscule fraction of what a good breeder looks for)
The question is, how many of the people on the net bashing the BYB and puppy mills actually do extensive testing?
Do they look back through their dog’s pedigree looking for dogs with allergies or dieing young from cancer, bloat, etc.?
How many of the dogs slaughtered in the shelters are sickly or is it more of a problem with behavior?
i have to agree with this.
As far as I can tell according to a couple of dog boards I visit, BYBs are bad, puppy mills are bad, some breeders don’t meet up with standards (i.e., if they breed more than one kind of dog, or if they have more than two litters a year, or if they only have one male, or if they–gasp!–ship the puppies to buyers out of state). Rescues are good. Reputable breeders are good.
But this is craziness. A friend of mine bred German shepherds. She had two bitches, one male, and paid for stud service for another male. She only let her bitches have one litter a year apiece, and only three litters ever in their lives. She did this from her house, which was not quite in the country–she had a big dog run, but essentially most of the puppies were in her house as her pets until they went off to good homes, and she had homes for them before they were even born. She did do obedience things with her adult dogs so they had championship points or whatever, and they were beautiful dogs. But this was not her principal line of work–she was a schoolteacher. Therefore she was a backyard breeder by their standards.
Also, as far as I can tell there are now two kinds of mutts. There are the kind I have, which are probably the results of oopsies and which do come from rescues and cost around $200 right now ($50 refundable neuter/spay fee, refundable when you prove you’ve done it). These dogs used to be free to good homes, and you could get one in, say, the supermarket parking lot from some kid with a bunch of them in a cardboard box, but now they come through rescues.
And there are designer dogs, i.e., Labradoodles, Poogles, and the like, which are still mutts but now being bred by–well, who knows, but they are costly, too.
I like my mutts. I have been very happy with my dogs, only one of them has ever had a congenital problem (hips) and they’ve had great personalities. I think these dogs come from back yard breeders–they may say it’s an accident, but sometimes I think they just have an awesome dog who they feel should be allowed to pass on its genes. Only now, instead of taking them to Walmart parking lot in a cardboard box, they hand them over to a rescue (with a donation) and somebody like me “adopts” them (with a donation).
i agree with everything you have said…BUT…i bought an irish wolfhound from a small, responsible breeder. his parents have papers (AKC) and both attained the rank of “champion”. neither had any health problems.
when my poor baby ended up with wobblers syndrome, the breeder cut off all contact with me. there is some debate as to just how genetic wobblers is, but rather than offer support and help me research the condition and possible treatment she just slammed the door. i was not asking her to pay for the (incredibly expensive) surgery he needed or to take him back. i wanted to let her know that her particular line of IW’s may have a genetic tendency towards this condition.
sometimes even when one researches a breeder, checks everything out, and has breeder references out the wazoo, the breeder may turn out to be a shit head if something goes wrong.
shel
This thread is changing my thinking to an extent. I have long been negative on show breeders and the more time I spend in dog threads, the worse I feel about them. Maybe they aren’t that bad, but on line, in general, they are arrogant, rude, controlling, elitists that think they own the dog world and everybody should follow their practices. I also find much of their advice on caring for puppies contrary to what I have good cause to believe are best practices.
One question this thread has brought out for me is who should be allowed to have a dog? Only those able to pay 4 figures for a puppy whose parents have been checked for every possible health problem? Since I can’t afford a BMW, should I have to walk?
Should we ask anybody that is going to breed dogs to at least do some minimum screening such as hip X-Rays for the larger breeds and CERF? Forgo using a dog with allergies even if they are controlled? Disqualify behavior problems? On one site a lady asked how to stop her gorgeous ruby red male mini Dachshund form marking. I of course said neuter him. She was aghast. She planned to breed him. She was quite happy when somebody else suggested a belly band. No, no, no, if you can’t train a dog out of a bad behavior, don’t breed it.
At least with the BYB, you are getting parents likely living in somebody’s home and maybe not requiring a belly band.